Adjusting SRA using macro lens vs microscope

Thanks Doug. That is a very good summation. I will listen for that tonight, though my SME V makes adjusting for this stuff a bit tedious.

Dear Dougdeacon: I know that what you said you were listening is what you in true were listening, no question about.

Where I don't know for sure where you are really " stand up " is if you heard what you heard because you are right on SRA for that track/groove recording or because you have the right azymuth or the right overhang or right in two of these parameters or what!.

As I posted, when we change SRA we have to adjust at least overhang and azymuth and I don't read that you made the overhang/azymuth changes everytime you change SRA. Maybe I'm missing something there but I can't understand how you compensate the other parameters when SRA is changes.

Doug, I'm assuming that you/we want that the cartridge set-up with that track in the recording be " perfect ".

In any decent audio system you could hear tiny overhang set up differences, as tiny as 0.1mm, your system is pretty good so you can and in the other side both of you I know have good ears.
How do you know that that tiny SRA changes are the one concept ( SRA ) that in specific made the difference and not the overhang or azymuth or some kind of distortion because some of those parameters ar out of target?

IMHO the first step to tonearm cartridge set-up is to choose a tonearm geometry set up: Baerwald, Löfgren, Bauer, Stevenson or what you like. Why choose any of these geometry tonearm/cartridge set up equations/calculators?

Because in any one of them we have different distortion level in different parts ( inner grooves, outer grooves, between null points, etc. ) of the whole recorded LP surface, so we choose due to that average distortions we want, we choose here our trade-offs.

First target is that the cartridge/tonearm set up be " perfect on three parameters: TT spindle center to tonearm pivot center distance, overhang and offset angle.
If you have a tiny error/difference in overhang or offset angle in the cartridge set up then your/our distortions targets changes and what we choose at the begin it is not any more achieved.

SRA changes not only change the SRA but made that other critical parameters change too so we have to reset these parameters for be again right on target.

All these considerations make that we can't speak that SRA was the " one "/culprit for the " new " sound, IMHO it is more complex than that.
This complexity IMHO too made the whole set up for each one recording a nightmare if we want to do it precise and near " perfect ".
I'm not against to do it with each recording but the analog alternative is so imperfect that we can't make it " perfect ".
In your case what happen if you decide to change your cartridge for other different? what happen with all the work that both of you take it with those 1,000 LPs where you writed in each one the SRA set up?

You need to test again all those 1,000 LPs with the new cartridge, not an easy task and for the second time!

I think that before we take this or the other or other one approach in the SRA subject we have to choose our targets/priorities and " build " around those targets with out changing it because the SRA or other parameter changes.

The ears are the tool that almost all are using to the cartridge set up but our each one knowledge on music makes a difference too as makes a differences to understand what is happening in our home audio system at each audio link.

Through the time ( listening time. ) we learn when our system performance is near " perfection " as you already know with your system.

My post is only trying to clarify the whole concept and what surounded the cartridge/tonearm/LP set up.

Btw, you posted:

+++++ " please start thinking about SRA, not VTA. They are two different things. What you'll be viewing with your microscope is SRA. The changes you'll hear as your listening skills advance will be primarily due to changes in SRA, only secondarily to changes in VTA. " +++++

Doug, everytime you change SRA you change VTA too and everytime you change VTA you change SRA too. Sure are different and the meaning is different but both are IMHO " primarily ". When people change VTA to improve his system quality performance the improvement comes because that VTA change changed the SRA.

Anyway, the important subject is to have trained ears to be " there ".

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

Raul,

I see your point about the three parameters all being minutely affected when one changes his VTA setting. I also agree that the settings Doug wrote down for his VTA for each of those 1,000 LPs is useful information and saves him time when he plays one of those LPs. Those settings will be different with a different cartridge and probably with a different arm, especially one that does not have the same calibration or markings on it for repeatability. He will contend with that how he will.

However, I was at the listening session last weekend when we auditioned the Ortofon A90 and Doug adjusted VTA/SRA for each LP. I know what I heard and the results were much better after Doug did his adjustments. I learned a lot from his expertise. I don't really care if the improvements were in fact SRA related, overhang related or spindle distance related. That is for arm designers to worry about IMHO. His adjustments were easy to make given his experience, ears and the fantastic arm. And they were well worth the effort on a cartridge like the A90. We all make trade offs in this analog hobby, I agree with you. I don't plan go to the effort of changing cartridge alignment for each LP. The "effect" of changing the VTA/SRA setting is enough for me once a good average alignment is achieved and if the arm is capable of easy VTA adjustments.

@Doug,

Something like Dave Wilson's Razzmattaz V. 1 is a good record for setting VTA. A better Heliotrope ;)

Here's a link to another discussion with a good pic illustrating the utility of the USB Scope.

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?1570-Cartridge-Set-Up

Thanks for taking the time to post and detailing what to listen for. I certainly have some work ahead.

I did receive the scope today and it took only 15min including installation, taking a pic and measuring an angle.

It yielded an SRA of 89.3 degree which I previously set by setting the arm tube of Phantom parellel to record surface with just using a ruler (no fine tuning by ear).

As long as one can fine tune by ear for 2 degree, the usb microscope is really not that necessary.

However, I find it is actually more helpful in aligning cartridge using the mint LP. It is better than the 10 times lupe. My back and neck are much happier. I have multiple arms and very difficult to stick my head between the arms.

When record is spinning, it would apply small amount of force on the stylus. IS stationary/static SRA the same as the SRA with record in motion? All the more reson to do by ear.

"Of course within reason it really doesn't much matter where you start. What matters is where you finish. :-)"

That's deep.