Albert Porters after market panzerholz plinths

Lewn,

I think its just that i have a very high standard of what i expect a "hi end stereo" to do. For some of the prices some have shelled out here you would think their sound would be absolutely amazing, yet the casual listener probably would not be wowed or amazed. I have heard some very expensive systems and some ultra expensive systems and have been very underwhelmed. They all seem to suffer from some problem or deficiency that makes them seem rather mediocre. With that said, i think as you move to the more exotic materials, designers and components things are more within reach of being what i think they should be when i first began my foray into "hi end". Guys who are just entering and becoming members have no idea just how far they will have to go and how hard they will have to work, in listening , comparing, buying , selling just to start breaking the surface of "getting special results". Even then it will take some luck, some careful planning to get there. Alot of "midfi stuff" sold here...i think is not much better than a system sold at a london drugs store and it never goes under the guise of "hi end" and some of them sound pretty good.

I admit i am a little let down by "reviews", jaded by money lost on "midfi products" advertised as "hi end audio" but all i'm trying to do is say ...the road to bliss is a complicated one, a slow one and an expensive one. I believe this to be accurate, so i consider myself more of a realist than a pessimist. The flood of turnover products is my proof. I feel i am getting close to try hi end sound though...and i'm sure others are getting their too...by the way congrats on your new sp10mk3 with reed arm. That looks like it has lots of potential to be a sonic stunner! Nice!

Lewn,

I think this better illustrates what i'm trying to get across.

Simon yorke s10 designer, a stereophile interview(taken from a review of one of his tables:

***I questioned Yorke about the laminate; he told me defiantly that "I have a box as big as this sofa at home full of materials I've tried for armboards. It sounds preposterous, but I've been driving along in my car and I've seen things lying by the side of the road and I've put on the brakes and jumped out of the car and grabbed this thing and put it back in the car and taken it home and machined an armboard out of it to see what would happen and listened to it. It's kind of obsessive, really. You can talk about machining and all the bullshit people talk about—bearing tolerances—but materials are awfully important. And if you change these materials you can make [two] turntables from the same set of drawings...[that have] completely different sonic signatures. I've got boxes worth of platters. I've made platters out of wood, stone, glass—any number of things. The same with armboards." ****

Also as you say...****if we take that the job of a plinth is essentially the same no matter what it is made of, which is to be "neutral..."

But what is neutral? And how do we get it? How many different sonic attributes does a material need to be able to pull off RIGHT in order to portray NEUTRAL perfectly. (alot) I think you've made my point. We THINK to arrive at neutral is a SIMPLE endeavor, yet micheal fremers former reference table designer simon yorke is slamming his brakes on the highway searching for a great armboard material!!! Why do you think he didnt just order some slate or panzerholz?

Again as i said now multiply that by the materials used in other systems and theyre quantities/qualities AND how they will ultimately interact with a plethora of other items within a system, you realize the complexity of arriving at the finest level of playback is complicated.

Notice that simon must obviously do alot of experimenting and not all of it is objective or can be predicted or measured. I take that to mean that sound and how it will manifest itself is to some degree still a mystery. Remember also that he did his listening and designing in some degree IN ISOLATION (as do all/alot of designers,ie they use theyre own gear, cables, cartridge,(not yours) to fine tweak. This means that his results to a greater or lesser degree are biased toward his system not necessarilty ours , therefore results will vary to some degree, hence the complicatedness of it all.

Yes, we can and do make progress and we can feel safe that a slate or panzerholz plinth are good bets and a very good place to start but their not blanket, across the board answers or guarantees of anything (i think)(and i think maybe some think they ARE)...but for the finest of finest nuances to be brought out in a system, that last, little bit, you have to experiment with mats, cartridge bolt torques, footers, cables, cartridge shims, tube rolling, racks, different armboard materials, speaker placement, vibration control, room treatment and you kinda have to do it on your own and trust your ears.

I think what makes vinyl playback so full of potential and special over digital is the fact that vinyl playback is DEPENDENT on the mechanical vibrations of MATERIALS to mimick reality.

Dear Vertigo,
If you wait for a scientific definition of perfection, when it comes to vinyl reproduction, and even when it comes to digital, you will be standing by the side of the road forever. Most of what you wrote is true; but there is still a lot of fun to be had in the subjective pursuit of happiness. This lack of precision actually works in our favor. If there were any absolute standards beyond what pleases the listener, audio would be a pretty boring hobby, in fact. We would be without eccentrics like Simon Yorke, probably.

Right next to my SP10 Mk3 sits a Lenco, using a different tonearm and a wonderful MM cartridge, in contrast to the MC Ortofon on the Mk3. Both sound superb and not terribly different to my ears. (Both give a big, free, open sound with plenty of depth and stage width.) I could live with either tt alone and probably will pick one, as I ride off into audio Valhalla. On the other side of the Mk3 sits a Kenwood L07D, one of the few tables ever built with a well engineered plinth that needs no mods whatsoever. Constrained layer damping a la 1979. It sounds great too. Record mats are very very important, I agree, by the way. Is that a bad thing?

Lewn,

As to your first paragraph. I'm not waiting for a scientific definition of perfection. I simply (calmly) am saying to help those who were like me, naive and gullible (believing the hype in marketing/reviews) that there was such a thing as a silver bullet component/components that will answer all your hifi problems/dreams. (including Albert porters table or the walker table or whatever)I say this last sentence as a direct response to the initial thread question. This message i guess is not to people like you but there are some out there who are very frustrated/irritated by the promises/lies propigated by salesman. Not all but some.

To answer the initial thread question i can say that the material panzerholz, of which i built an armboard which supplanted a mahogany armboard bettered it but there is still room for improvement and my results with the material might not be yours, as it will depend on which way your sound is already leaning but that its a good bet, but ultimately its your risk and there's no guarantees. You might spend alot of money time and effort but still end up wanting to sell it 6 months down the road. And is there anything wrong with that? No, not for those who didnt have any illusion's to begin with and has the patience, money, time and love for this pursuit, not to those who are prepared to make allowances for multiple "failures" disappointments, dashed hopes, when the perceived degree of advancement and its actually reality share no resemblance.

We've failed alot of naive, hopeful people by our greed and irresponsible claims.

I truly am enthusiastic about hifi, components, the material sciences involved and like you rightly say, the pleasure in the pursuit of attaining an ideal... not simply "arriving". I am impatient and my standards are probably too high.

I was so happy that simon yorke shared a bit of how he searches for ideal materials. I saw a bit of my myself in him, ie the passion, the excitement, the hopefulness, the desperation! (smile) I felt vindicated in that i always believed that results to some degree are unpredictable and that in the possession of every audio enthusiast is the power of experimentation! and to be able to dial in our sound not with supplanting our already great amp but by tweaking around it. We arent totally dependent or at the mercy of the "dealer" who thinks his products has the answer to my audio "problems".

There is ALOT of power, i think, in experimenting WITHIN our own systems , with OUR OWN hunches to yield very good results. How many different woods are there that i can build 1. a shim for between my cart and arm 2. to build an armboard with ? No how many different combinations can i get just out of those to parts? If i ad a third part, like maybe different feet, that just multiplies the number of combinations i can now make. Lets say there is 5 for each that would be like having a 3 dial lock with 5 numbers on each dial. As many combinations that are possible corresponds with how many different sounds qualities i can alter within the context of the rest of my system!!! Thats alot of possibilities! Now change armboard thicknesses, shim thickness and you've just added another 2 dials to your lock. This is what i am trying transfer to the idea of different plinth materials...(systems within systems, within systems)

Of course not everyone has that kind of time or passion, those are more likely to be the ones who get disappointed with the merry go round of components.

I guess each person will have to individually decide if all this is ultimately fun for them or not.

I'm staying here but on bad days i feel like selling it all and just getting an ipod with 10,000 songs, not obsessing over 1mm of vta or 1 /100 of a gram vtf! how one studio's sound compliments my set up while another fails it! (smiling) My perserverance/stubborness has helped me to ultimately have fun, learn and arrive very close to a sound that is close to impressing me. Things are sounding pretty good these days and i'm getting better at what i do, knowing how and where i can make sonic progress that brings meaningful results and pleasure to my life. But sometimes....its a jungle out there! beware the faint of heart and thin skinned! (smiling)

Appreciate you lewn! Thanks.

***I truly am enthusiastic about hifi, components, the material sciences involved and like you rightly say, the pleasure in the pursuit of attaining an ideal... not simply "arriving"***

Actually, I lied...It would be so nice to..."just arrive" forget the journey. (i guess i'm a dumb romantic too) (smile)