Nude Turntable Project

Great post, Henry, and I was not aware of this thread until this moment. As you know, I was one of the many who was and is in disagreement with Raul regarding the necessity for or value of a heavy, dense plinth to go with a DD turntable. But as Pryso says, you have not addressed this issue here. What I would like to know, however, is what IS your Victor tt sitting on or in? Raul makes a point that he uses the rare, and no longer available new, Audio Technica feet under the chassis of his SP10 Mk2. (As an aside, altho Raul evidently did own a Mk3 in olden days, he does not now own one and has not owned one since before he began his and our MM/MI saga. I really defy anyone to use a Mk3 with no plinth at all, because the torque of that motor will rotate the unfettered chassis at every start-up, thanks to Newton's Third Law, and screw up the alignment of all those tonearms you have stuck on outboard arm pods.) I would also like to know what is the make-up of that white shelving upon which you place your gear. Is it possible there is some fortuitously beneficial coupling between the shelf and the un-plinthed Victor? And finally, were you ever at any point able to compare the same tonearm/cartridge combinations on any two of the turntables you tested? By the way, I would rank the Victor as high up among the best of the mid- to upper level Japanese DD's, but like the Denon DP80 and some of the Kenwoods and Sonys, it has not gotten much attention compared to the SP10s. It is not obvious to me that the TT81 would be inferior in any way to an SP10 Mk2. (I would rank the SP10 Mk3 on the highest plain, along with the P3, the L07D, etc. These tables DO kick ass.)

So far, we have you and Albert Porter who have each compared a "good" vintage dd turntable to a current top line belt-drive turntable, with surprising results. I would guess there are others who have done a similar comparison and reached the opposite conclusion, but since they heard what they expected to hear, they have not bothered to comment. As you know, I am firmly in the idler- and direct-drive camp based on my own experiments in my own system, but since I never owned a $10,000 belt-drive in the first place, there is always some residual curiosity.

Hi Lew,
I'm surprised this 'Nude Turntable Project' has escaped your eagle eye for so long?
As I've said during the postings, I don't presume to extend any of my findings to idler or rim- drive decks as the mechanics of those are quite different to direct drive.
I also defer to your observations on the SP-10 Mk3 due to it's initial high torque although once correct speed has been attained I can't see how its stability is very much different to the SP-10 Mk2 or the TT-81?
If you have the time to read through all the posts and photo links, you should be able to see the TT-81 sitting on 3 aluminium tip-toes directly on the 33mm thick laminated paricle board shelf.
This shelf is sitting on patented aluminium cantilevered brackets called T-Brax (from England) which slot into adjustable aluminium support rails screw to the masonry wall.
There is no question that this 33mm shelf is 'mass-loaded' by the weight of all the equipment thereupon, however both the Raven and the TT-81 are effectively decoupled from this shelf by the Tiptoes.
The closest I've managed to hear 2 same arms on both decks is with the FR-64s on the TT-81 and the FR-66s on the Raven. The same cartridges have been swapped in for both these arms.
These comparisons have led me to conclude at this stage that the cartridge/arm combinations are more important than the drive systems employed assuming competency in those drive systems is equivalent?

Dear Halcro/Raul
Some impressions - Having had this setup going for a few weeks now this is what I believe has happened in laymans terms. Bear with me.
We all know the needle in the groove moves back and forth, causes good vibrations to happen, which are then picked up by the stylus and sent down the phono cables along the tonearm to the rest of our gear to make beautiful music.
“Any” other vibrations that get introduced into play are bad, a problem, and we hear that as distortion in the music itself. Other vibrations come in from at least two directions. 1) Up from the platter into the cartridge, down the arm as well as 2) up from the plinth, up the arm pod where they meet with the other vibrations and cause the havoc we hear as distortion.
I believe I have reduced vibrations going up the platter with this setup - but MORE SO going up the arm - by isolating it more.
Further - A plinth is by definition any structure. I still have a plinth that my sp10 and arm are coupled to. Its the 4 inches of solid maple. It can be seen in this link.

http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/view_userimages.php?user_id=5181

Both sp10 and arm board are coupled by spikes – they are not on separate audio stands and the sp10 itself being plinthless.
The above is why I believe I had improvement in sound. A fantastic plinth that the DD and arm sit directly in or on will also reduce both direction vibrations but this is a much more complicated solution and costs a lot more $$ to implement to get to this level. I believe it also introduces colorations to the music itself as it has been said by you before based on the material used. This setup is much more simpler to actually implement – and for the average guy or gal “ me “ that has a good DD TT the isolating of the arm got me to a place that would have cost me much more $$ to implement the other way.
Does this reasoning make sense. It has been said before I realize but I wanted to put in simple words for others implementing this setup.
I wanted to also mention that having this setup reminds me of computers – Desktop versus laptops. Heavy plinths are like desktops and rarely moved if at all due to weight and their structure. This set up is portable and can be moved very easily. This is a big + as I have 3 systems in two physical locations. This has allowed me to enjoy my vinyl in multiple locations.
Final thought is that I have been experimenting with different feet for the sp10. Currently using mapleshade spikes. I find it very easy when setting up to first - put the arm where I want it to be and then 2) just move the sp10 into alignment rather than messing with the arm. It takes about 3-4 minutes to line up the ET arm once I have changed feet.
Thank you for bearing with me – appreciate the feedback.
Cheers - Chris

Dear Chris,
I agree with your perceptions and also am convinced that your isolated tonearm base goes a long way to explaining some of the improvement.

An explanation for that reasoning is contained in a new thread i have posted "A Copernican view of the Turntable System" HERE

Cheers
Henry

Why has my thread 'A Copernican View of the Turntable System' been completely erased?

No one at Audiogon will respond to me?