Schroder sq and the new talea

I havent visited my thread for a while. And when i posted this i never imagined that it would have gone to 5 pages.

It seems the initial comparisons at the show could not provide any meaningful conclusions because the arms were compared with more than only one variable and the integrity of the test was compromised.

It must be a daunting task to do a quality controlled comparison when you've invested so much time and love into your baby. I know i would be scared to be dethroned if i was considered up their with the best.

Maybe this way it does more justice to two great arms that we dont have a definitive answer to which arm appeared to sound better.

It would be fascinating to me to have another go at a "friendly audio enthusiast comparison" between the two arms.

This would be the "boxing ring" where the two heavyweights could meet for the "title match"...

1. Shoot out is done on no earlier than the second day of the show so that each designer feels they have dialed in the table arm cart combo and are satisfied they have set up their arm so that it is operating optimally.

2. Use either A) 2 saskia's or b) One acustic raven with each of the competing arms mounted on it.

3. Both desingers understand 1 and 2 and based upon that agree on a single cart they feel is a satisfying match for their arm and for the system they will be compared in but both must agree to the same cart.

4. All other parameters are identical, ie phonostage , speakers, cables, room etc, etc, even to the point of matching decibal output levels via a test tone and decibal meter prior to playing back a track. A person is assigned to track and set the decibal level.

5. Several generes of music are used in the comparison.

6. People vote on a blank sheet of paper , cast anonymous ballots but cant give head nods or comment verbally until all the votes have been cast.

I think the above would truly be a quality test and i think the arms might be alot closer in terms of their tone then people might think. Its all the other parameters we expect an arm to be able to perform that will probably decide who wins and i figure only by a ...technical knockout. Somehow i doubt that either of these two arms will have the other "reeling on the ropes from a blow!"

It would settle the claim for or against as to whether the talea really is a "game changer or not!" [good marketing hype or?] and maybe schroder
can put the new kid on the block in his place! [ i only jest!]

Wouldn't a schroder talea on a saskia shoot out be wild!?

In the left corner weighing in at 500g the heavy weight champion of the world.....the schroder sq!!!!!!

and in the other corner.....!

Ding! Ding!

*

[smile]

Congratulations to both designs....

*

Umm dear Vertigo, You are a true optimist. Here are problems with your proposal:
(1) It closely matches the original plan for the 2010 shoot-out, which did not happen as planned BECAUSE the two tonearm makers could not agree on cartridges, or more correctly, one tonearm maker would not agree to use the Ortofon A90 (I think that was the plan) and at the last minute he also demanded to use a different phono stage.
(2) See #1. What would make you think that the situation next year will be any different?
(3) One thing I came away with for sure: The two tonearms do sound different in and of themselves, so in the end it will be a matter of taste.
(4) Do you think poor Win Tinnon has two 200-lb Saskias that he wants to schlep to Denver from North Carolina, just so two prima donna tonearm makers can argue over cartridges and phono stages?

No offense intended to Messeurs Schroeder and Durand. They have good reason to protect their small bit of turf.

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***You are a true optimist.**** [smiling]

No, I'm a dreamer!!!!

[...like i said above... "wouldn't it be wild?!!!!"]

Yes!...it would!

Imagine that ...2 saskias! One with a talea, one with a schroder. Both set up to the designers satisfaction and by their expertise!

The post was what i would consider one of my ultimate "fantasy shoot outs" [which always includes "controlled" testing] and only ONE variable and just the thought of it was thrilling!

Didn't i mention it would be daunting? I realize that it would be difficult for them to say yes to such a thing because of the ramifications of the outcomes. Even in the that controlled environment, there are still problems with it.

In short comparisons with limited discs your understanding of "which is the better arm" is weak. When we listen we focus on one aspect of the music at a time but it takes several listens to the same track, to get a more complete picture and bottom line. Sometimes with some aspects it can take months to wrap ones mind around whether they like one arm over the other. No?

Then theres the problem of the publicity of the results, the blanket statements that will be made afterwards , which assumes that the conclusions are definitive and objective.

Plus, the shoot out is still being done in isolation to hundreds of other systems out there and so while one arm might work better in one system it might not in another.

If the larger community of audiophiles really understood that such a shoot in the final analysis doesnt really amount to much, then we can just all have fun and shake hands and still be willing to explore BOTH arms in our own systems.

**** Do you think poor Win Tinnon has two 200-lb Saskias that he wants to schlep to Denver from North Carolina, just so two prima donna tonearm makers can argue over cartridges and phono stages?***

[smiling] Relax! I was just dreaming out loud! [smile] and...just throwing it out there...who knows!...maybe this dream might gain some momentum! ...I realize how much work and how expensive it must be to move those saskias and the economy isnt doing so well but maybe it would be some good exposure for his tables to be involved in such a shoot out? And maybe he's up for some good fun and thats reason enough for him?

I did realize the logistical problems with that and that is why i offered option "B", which was ...making use of a single acustic raven table, just throwing ideas out there and having fun. I picked those two off the top of my head because when i think of them i think "low noise" tables. It could be any table though.

If 100 people voted anonymously and 60 chose schroder and 40 talea, does that mean anything? Do most people have a refined enough palate to pick out the 200 dollar bottle of wine from the 60 dollar?

If boston wins the stanley cup does that mean they are the better team? I guess one could ask me...If you think all that and believe it to be true why do you propose the above shoot out in the first place or suggest it?

Well, because they are both respectable arms and for the sheer pleasure of making the comparison! in good fun! just for the sport of it!

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Vertigo,

I doubt any of the arms would be better than your Breuer w. Allaerts combination for what they do best. I owned that match and that is one of the great combinations. Only difference is I went up the Allaerts tree. But... the MC1b mk2 is great in its own right and the upgrade is not necessarily better and there are qualities of the MC1b that are better than the MC2 Finish.

In a nutshell, yes no best but there are great combinations out there. Not all needs to be equal to do a comparison. You just need to compare different great combinations. And yes a phono stage is part of the equation.