A Copernican View of the Turntable System

Dear Pryso: Today if I have to design a TT I will think very seriously and in deep about the TT plinth whole subject ( what we normally understand for plinth. Yes even in a naked version there is a body where the TT seats but IMHO this is not the plinth we all are refering to. Of course we can hang-up but even here we need some " body ". ).

The first think that comes to my mind after several experiences with naked TTs is that the best plinth ( any ) is no plinth.

All plinths as you point out has its own resonances/distortions. That we can't " hear it/aware of it " does not means that the phono cartridge that is a very sensible " microphone " can't do it. That's where the differences we heard comes.

Yes different build material plinths has different behavior but why any one ( other than commercial business$$$ ) one of us have to worry about that " unknow " plinth behavior if we just can eliminate.

What I really be more " conscious " is on what surround the TT: body of the TT it self where the TT will be seated.

Instead to worry on this " TT's body " and plinth ( two subjects ) I have to " worry " only on one subject and try to have/design that perfect TT's body that can makes the less degradation to the cartridge audio signal. This make sense to me.

I'm not saying that this is the only way to think: no, the people that thing plinths are the way to go are welcome.

Now, we have to take in count if what we are designing is a DD or BD TT because each one has its own needs.

In the other side the plinth/no-plint subject is only a " small " part/factor that has influence in the cartridge quality performance level as several other " factors " as the one Halcro pointed out: arm board.

Obviously that the proof of any TT plinth design approach is when we hear it in our audio system and can confirm how good or not is that approach. Every other " thing/though " IMHO is only theory/speculations
that can't be prove it or mere assumptions.

We IMHO need facts and IMHO too right now we have not all the facts that can prove for sure the value of each approach that conlcude with out any doubt wich and why is the UNIVERSAL and best design approach.

All the experiences and opinions of the people that already try/tested the naked alternative proof something: that we like better the naked approach and second that all the ones already tested agree: we don't have yet a contrary experiences yet.

I like un-biased opinions on the subject ( un-biased $$$$$$ opinions. ) like these one:

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1283151240&openflup&78&4#78

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1283151240&openflup&84&4#84

and obviously the Halcro one.

Anyway, an interesting and learning discussion. Keep on.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

that there really is no such thing as "no plinth"

Well....depends how you define 'plinth'?
Of course, if even a wire cage can be called a 'plinth', then perhaps you're right?

I like Raul's proposition ( we're back on track Raul :-))...the 'best' plinth is 'no plinth'.
And I also agree with him that we still haven't heard from anyone who has listened to a 'plinthless' TT and found it wanting? As Raul says

we don't have yet a contrary experiences yet.

Only hypothetical theories about why a plinth must exist?

In any case, I was lying awake last night thinking of this and I wondered......if we can take the 'plinth' totally out of the equation, then there can be no argument?
There are now many turntables utilising magnetic drive of the sub-platter and/or magnetic separation of the main platter from the sub-platter.
As Clearaudio claims about their Statement turntable

Magnetic driven sub-platter, with absolutely no contact to the main platter.

The DaVinci AAS Gabriel MK2 has similar magnetic separation of the main platter.
Unless I'm missing some obvious physical law here, I'd be tempted to claim that the 'plinth' in these situations can have no effect on the sound produced?

Puh-leeze. There is NO ad hoc argument that wins this debate. The Clearaudio Statement looks like an over-sized, over-priced turdball to me. But in any case, magnetically levitated platters in belt drive turntables are irrelevant to this discussion. I will agree any time that in my experience, plinthless is the way to go for belt drive. But that is beside the point. "Every time I think I'm out [of this discussion], they pull me back in." (M Corleone, Godfather III)

"But don't ever take sides with anyone against the Family again. Ever. "
Michael Corleone

Dear Halcro, don't just think of "plinth" as a wooden "cage" around the bearing and armboard. Take plinth rather as the "common ground" of both - bearing and armboard - and you have the answer.
Again - if you are looking for real arguments, do seek shelter in the arms of our good old mother physic (at least as long as we are standing on this good earth...).
It may still not really sound tempting to all or most, but the already cited force vector diagram will shine more than just a faint light here. It will fully illustrate the position of raw physics and the depending of the individual parts of the system to the whole and to each other.

Cheers,
D.