A Copernican View of the Turntable System

Dear Dertonarm: +++++ " A FV-diagram will clarify the topic. " +++++

imho THE TOPIC IS IF A NAKED tt SOUNDS BETTER OR WORST THAN A PLINTHED ONE. Till today the ones that already tested the naked option reported a better quality performance level against the plinthed one.

Please let us know how that FV-diagram can tell us the same: IF A PLINTHED TT SOUNDS BETTER OR WORST THAN A NAKED ONE.

Please don't put " clouds " on your answer or take other topics be precise and specific, no more retoric.

A second question: THAT " fv-DIAGRAM " has ears? how good are ?

Thank you in advance for your answer.

regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

A FV-diagram will clarify the topic.

Which question/topic do you believe it will clarify?

1. Is a plinthless TT better or worse than a plinthed TT?
2. Is a self-standing tonearm better than a directly coupled tonearm?

(1) or (2) or both? Do they amount to the same question for you? By ‘better or worse’ I mean that from the perspective of the end user and not from a design perspective (even if it’s true that the design takes the end user's perspective into account).

How specifically does it clarify? Which concepts? And if one makes a distinction between clarifying a question and answering it, I take your claim above to imply that drawing the FV diagram doesn’t by itself answer the questions at hand. That is, the FV diagram doesn’t settle the dispute between Lewm and Halcro/Raul/Chris.

Also, do you believe that the specific sound quality (phenomenological experience) of a TT set up can be deduced a priori from knowledge of its constituent parts + arrangement? I ask this in all seriousness since, in the monumentally amusing ‘TW Acustic Arm’ thread you seemed to suggest that one could infer the sound of that arm merely by knowing how it was designed (+knowledge of the physics pertaining to arms); that is, know it without actually listening to it. I suspect that if you do believe this, then the conversation is over since Raul’s empiricism, if I understand his above post, isn’t having any of it.

I’m a grown man and I also like to go to public lectures, although you are right that I don’t like to be lectured. If you tell me something useful that I don’t know about something I’m interested in (which won’t be all that difficult in this context), then far from receiving scorn, you’ll have my gratitude.

Dear Raul,
a force vector diagram can tell how the different forces act and where they go (which I think is a very interesting question in itself .... ) and as such will explain the contribution of a "plinth" and will explain that there is always a "plinth" - even in "naked" TTs.
The only truly "naked" (i.e. NO plinth at all ) turntable is a moving platter and tonearm in fixed and orientated distance to each other floating in outer space away from earth's gravity and atmosphere. So all forces and energy displayed in that machine will remain within the machine.
I know that you don't like physics and empirical theories, but sometimes they help .....
I am not sure, whether the FV-diagram has actually ears, but if it does, those ears will be very objective and free from prepositions, decline by advanced age, taste and egomania.
So it might very well add one more statement, opinion and position to the topic.
As good ... or bad ... as any other.
Cheers,
D.

Dear DT, All I'm saying is can you direct us to such a diagram or help us understand how you would go about constructing it? One major force, for sure, is the torque of the motor, which is angular by the definition of "torque". And we all know that the torque of the motor trying to compel the platter to revolve in a clockwise direction will in equal measure compel the chassis to revolve in the counter-clockwise direction (which is one reason, IMO, why there MUST be at least a certain minimum mass to the chassis of a direct-drive turntable, where the motor is firmly a part of the chassis, lets say it needs to be much higher than the mass of the platter). Apparently the no-plinthers have observed that Newton's Third Law is not much of a problem in this regard. What next, I mean what other major forces are in play? VTF, skating, gravity.....?

One of the senior members in the other forum I am part of said something about isolated arm pods in a way that I think “nailed it” as far as what I am hearing.

"These are said to break the rumble feedback loop through the plinth as it contacts the arm at both ends - through the arm pillar and cartridge via the platter".

That’s it for the theory part.

Dear Lewn:

I thought in the other thread that you were going to attempt this with your Denon. I was really looking forward to your impressions based on your vast experience.

Your comment:
“Apparently the no-plinthers have observed that Newton's Third Law is not much of a problem in this regard”.

Btw - Thinking of having T-shirts made up that say NO-PLINTHER – just kidding. Just remember I still have another TT with a plinth that I enjoy.

Anyway to answer the question - When I start my sp10 there is a slight split second vibration that can be felt in the motor casing. After that it might as well be dead – can’t hear or feel anything and it hasn’t moved at all since it was last set up.

All

I have to admit I am a little dumbfounded at some of this. Vector diagrams?

If trying a separate arm pod and no plinth “around -holding ” the TT meant lots of investment in time and $$ - I would understand the reluctance– but its been discussed many times by Raul and Halcro - all you have to do is take the motor/platter unit out of its plinth, put it on some type of legs and construct some type of temporary arm out of some cheap material to hear the difference.

My first attempt was an arm pod made from glued MDF layers! I believe Halcro used a can of some vegetable!

What I am trying to say is from my experience you will know right away whether you like what you hear or not - It is that evident. Then you will know whether you want to pursue this further. Having a hard time understanding the reluctance to try it ? Are you concerned you might like the sound?

Not sure if everyone feels this way - but - To me in this hobby nothing is more satisfying than when you come upon something - a component, a process, some setup change - whatever - that makes such a big difference to your system – that it is almost like a revelation to your listening. I have spent days moving speakers around. My floor looks like a police scene with the tape markings. This experiment took the weight of that plinth off my shoulders. It now sits in another room and my wife is asking me what is going on since I disappeared for weeks when I was involved with it. I am wondering too.

I find it ironic that most of these moments for me did not equate to a lot of money having to be spent.
How many have re-positioned speakers after having them in the same place for years. It was enlightning. This might be like that.

I don’t see the need for a debate or dispute here at all – if you are passionate enough to discuss it you should try it.

Cheers Chris