A Copernican View of the Turntable System

Dear Thuchan: Please don't put words/statements in my " mouth " that I never said. I never stated that is my " benchmark " for TT or that is my " King of TT in my opinion ".

This is what I posted:

++++ " Henry you need to listen the SME 30/2 that IMHO is a top performer and till today I never read of any customer with any single compliant about speed stability or isolation or almost any other kind of compliant. " +++++

so instead to posting that kind of false statements give us the specifics reasons why the SME30 is not a top performer ( along other TTs. ).

I know for sure that you have no specific answers because today you are a different Thuchan that the one that you was motnhs/years ago when you stated: " hey I'm not part of that german group ".
Obviously today you are full and deep contaminated and as you say: if that works for you fine.

+++++ " if you are thinking the SME 30/2 is a top performer I am wondering why you are not going for it. " +++++

the main reason is because when I bought my two AS and the RX5000 I need it to mount 10 tonearms to test my cartridges and try to match it with the better tonearm where the cartridge performs the better. The SME 20/30 can't give the " facilities " to achieve that target.

For your last post it is obvious that you don't know almost nothing on the SME design characteristics and operation.

Where your RX8000/SX8000 and mine RX5000 needs a damping/antivibration plattform to " seat it " the SME needs nothing at all, the SME self TT isolation works as you or any of your TT can even " dream ". You can dance ( and I mean it ) a top the rack where the SME 30 is seated with out no single disturbance to the LP playback that you can detect over the speakers.
The MSs are one of the worst TTs on this main TT target design characteristics.
This great isolation job that SME attain remember me one old Denon DP-100 TT demostration/show where the Denon dealer " put " one of his employees a top the metal top TT plinth during playback with no disturb about. This kind of isolation is what a cartridge ask for and that those MS just can't do it it does not matters what you do or did about.

The SME 30 has one of the best power supply designs ( if not the best. ) out there nothing like that so poor MS PS design. I know very well the MS PS design that I have to re-design ( not change parts that does not help when you have a wrong design. ) in my unit and the 1500 and 8000 are the same, maybe the SZ could be better but I don't know.

The SME30 speed stability and speed accuracy is well beyond on what your MS can shows, these ones are far away from there.

The best for the last:
the SME 20/30 designs certainly does not belongs to the heavy weight/mass TT approach that IMHO is a wrong approach just from start, I mean here that TT ( vintage/today ) designers from this school already trespass the limits where heavy weight/mass works in favor of the design ( mainly to help with speed stability. ) where after those limits that additional mass/weight not only does/can not help but goes in detriment/degradation of the whole quality performance level.
The more disturbing on this heavy weight/mass school is that you can ask to any designer why he decided that the platter or plinth be of 100 kg and he does not have a specific and scientific answer and if you ask him why 100 kg and not 60kg. or 120kg: he does not know!, just choosed with almost no " engeneering " there.
I ask in this thread about to that TT that will have a 110lbs in the platter and no answer at all.

That BD TT on the heavy mass/weight school are very good looking " boys " for audio childrens/rockies that say: " hey, it weights 200 kgs. and cost 70K dollars, this has to be a great top TT performer. " with out to think that does 200 kgs. generate energy rotational energy that generate vibrations tiny ones that the cartridge take it. As more heavy as worst the problem and as worst the distorions that degrade the cartridge signal.
All these guys that " die for " this kind of TT not only does not ask their self about but where goes all that rotational energy generated by the TT? could be damped in effective way? how comes? how much? and before could be dampened/dissipated where goes, because on playback there are cycles to go and perform?

Obviously the SME people as several other TT designers ( Sota, Project, rega, Linn, etc, etc. ) know very well this " heavy " problem that : voila! has no solution because is out of the mass/weight limits on TT designs ( Alek on the Onedof pointed about: he knows. ).

A TT is a cartridge slave and must be designed to fulfil the cartridge needs and between this needs is what the cartridge can " hear/sense " that you or me can't.

Thuchan, do you think that the Victor, Denon, Technics, Exclusive, Kenwood, Monaco, TTs sounds so good only because are DD ones?, certainly not: a common denominator to all of them is that are " anemic " designs where is more easy to disippate/damp the TT energies/self vibrations.

Do you know what stress level " suffer " a heavy weight TT bearing against an " anemic " design? and do you know what this means?

The " sad " thing here is to see the Wave Kinetics DD that is taking that high mass/weight road, I hope that design be inside the mass/weight limits.

Yes, these " anemic " designs are IMHO more neutral and with lower distortions than the heavy ones. That you like it the heavy ones does not means are better because are not: it only fit your distortion level targets, that maybe you even don't know for sure.

I agree with Syntax statement:

++++ " most are confused when they hear a Turntable which does nothing, only spinning the record with the right speed and adds nothing into the reproduction process. A good Turntable has no sound " +++++

well, IMHO the SME 30 belongs to that " school " where those MS and other heavy ones did/do not.

I'm totally sure that we will see additional TT designs for audio childrens/roockies in the future till those designers: LEARN what a cartridge needs over their own pocket$$$$

Anyway, this is part a bad part of the AHEE.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Lew, I have been fighting for a solution with my slate plinth in the footers area to combat floor-borne vibrations. There just aren't any in the market that provide the proper height, decoupling, height adjustment, or a way to mount them. I recently discovered these that meet all of the above and will probably buy some in the near future to give a go.

http://www.simphys.com/Pages/isolation%20products.html

A wall shelf would probalby solve the problem but still would like to try these so the plinth alone could do it's job. One of those minuk-k, vibraplane or similiar would be the ultimate.

Brad

Dear Raul,

understand your fascination of the SME which only gives me an idea what you regard as Top-Performers, nothing else. But your words on my MS is exactely why it does not makes sense to compare. You do not know my Micro Seiki implementaion. You do not know that I use a better PS, that I use an air based Micro Seiki platform underneath, and another vibration control mechanism as well, that I am using a very precise speed variability & control system etc. But nevertheless you blow bubbles in the air.

It makes no sense as others have told you before to look (or even not look) at the images of one`s system and start interpretation like you do again.

best @ fun only

Wow - there are a lot of discussion points here - my points :
Sota - used to import these and my Sota Star Vacuum is still one of my favourite decks. It was far more speed stable than the Linn, Roksan etc. We use to rebuild the power supplies for the motors, knocking out the on board regulation of the papst motor and replacing it with better regulators. The improvement was massive, speed accuracy, organic wholeness of sound, but SOME CUSTOMERS DID NOT LIKE THE MODS BECAUSE THEY LOST THEIR WOBBLY BOTTOM END.
Raul - speaking from personal experience on my Final Audio ( 40kg platter ) I recently installed a wall hung shelf. Whilst the deck was in pieces, I cannot lift the tt in 1 piece ) I pulled the inverted bearing apart to check, clean and relube. The tt is 30+ years old and believe me I have seen more bearing wear on a 2-3 year old Rega, Linn, Roksan, Pink Triangle etc. There is virtually no wear, the oil is clean as a whistle. I use Motul V300 Power Racing oil which is very unctuous. I have seen it prevent a racing porsche which boiled the oil from seizing. The Final had Sine/Cosine wave generation for the AC motor along with infinitely adjustable speed AND adjustable torque 30 years ago.
I think the sad thing in audio is that the megabuck decks in many cases have been built to look different and the engineering is no better than decks costing a 1/3 their price. I think you nailed the importance of power supplies - I cringe when when I see puny power supplies on megabuck decks. Pure marketing rules these days.
Another great example is the L07D - look at the plinth design - many top end decks go nowhere towards approaching the level of detail in this plinth.
Notwithstanding that we cannot ignore the high frequency purity of a low mass tt - the best example in terms of high frequency extension for me was the Pink Triangle - woeful performance on speed accuracy but high frequency purity and extension to die for.
I prefer non suspended decks for speed stability - but the context is "within a reasonable budget". The Rega P9 is a great example of a low mass non suspended deck at a modest price.
The SME I still recommend to many friends and colleagues on the basis that it is a very good deck, a complete solution - tt/arm - and SME have been around forever. It is a lifetime purchase and an easy solution for a non audiophile who wants excellence.
Arm pods ( ugh ) - Halcro, why not use a decent engineers vice as a temporary solution for experiments. You can then have a nude rigidly mounted arm.

Dear Ecir (Brad, I think), Thanks for that URL but which feet on that page are you using? There are at least 6 or 7 different products shown. (This kind of troubles me because it makes me wonder whether the manufacturer has a real "philosophy" or does he just want to have something for everyone to buy, no matter what are the buyers preconceived notions.) For my Lenco, I needed rather tall feet, because I have an aftermarket bearing that sticks down well below the underside of the slate plinth, and tall feet are needed for proper clearance. Since I am allergic to spending on megabuck footers, interconnects, spkr cables, AC cords, discs, weights, etc, etc, I seized upon the idea of canned goods as footers.

Dear Raul, I think I understand what you are saying as regards your preference for lighter platters, which is that high mass objects might have trouble letting go of energy that is delivered into them, and heavy platters might therefore continue to accumulate vibrational energy that can leak into the LP and cartridge, rather than to dissipate it internally. This is a reasonable theoretical consideration, but what evidence do we have that it is operative in the world of turntable platters? Moreover, if the platter is made of layers of dissimilar materials, and/or a proper platter mat is employed, I believe the issue could be ameliorated. Please correct me if I have misstated your thesis. I am not a "big-platter" guy myself, as you know.

We can all agree without rancor that power supplies for turntable motors are a critical determinant of the performance, regardless of the drive system. I have demonstrated this for myself in my system many times.

Finally, I don't understand why it is necessary for your and Thuchan's interchange to be so caustic (not to mention the back and forth between you and Dertonearm). You are both good and sincere guys and this is all fun and games, as Thuchan likes to remind us. I've never heard an SME, but I have heard from others that it is either fantastic or dry and analytical sounding.