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Technics SP-10 mkII speed adjustment question

Hi,

I'm on my way to complete my Technics SP-10 mkII project. Actually, a friend of mine, a professionnal audio technician, is working to upgrade the PSU, which is done but a small adjustment on the speed must be done and he need some cue on this issue.

We already asked Bill Thalmann, Artisan Fidelity and Oswald Mill audio. Plus, I'll post on DIY Audio today. We'd like to get the answer as quickly as possible to finalized this for the week-end. Hope someone on Audiogon can help.

Here's the message from my technician:

"Hello,

I'm an electronic technician and I do repair for audio equipments, vintage, hifi pro and more. I have a client here that brought me his turntable Technics Sp-10 MKII to fixed. I have a little question about it and he gave me your email because he pretended that you have some experience with this kind of materiel. So, hope that you can response my technical question.

I replaced all capacitors in the power supply and a big solder job. I checked for defect solders or capacitors on the circuit boards inside the turntable and I tied to do the adjustments . Everything seem good right now, the turntable work fine. I tried do do the period adjustment with the VR101 and VR102 potentiometers like in the service manual ( see attachment, Period adjustment method). When I looked the stroboscope at the front of the turntable, It's pretty stable but I can see a tiny rumble at 33 1/2 and 78 speed. 45 is the more stable speed for the stroboscope. So, I fixed the phase reference with T1 at 18us of period and I try to do the period adjustment at the point test T and S on the board with the O point for reference. When I put my scope probe on the T point, I can observe the stroboscope running. It is not stable at all. If I pull off my probe, the stroboscope is stable again. So When I have the 2 probes at point S an T at the same time to do the adjustment, it's impossible to fixed the wave T because it going right to the left on my scope. When I turned the VR101, the T wave going faster or slower but never stable. I tried to ground lift my scope, plug it into the same power bar and try to pull off the reference at the O point. I can't have a setup that I can see a stable T wave in my scope with the one that I can do the right adjustment. Why? Is there a problem with the turntable or maybe it's a incorrect probe or ground setup? Please let me know what you think.

Best regards"

Thanks for help,

Sébastien
128x128sebastienl
albertporter's avatar
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albertporter
4,949 posts
 
Lewm,

Regarding
But I am interested in what you know about the Mk3 mods that were done by Bill to Albert's Mk3. Can you describe them in any detail? For one thing, I am curious about what is done to the power supply module. For another, I wonder whether the inventor is supplying some actual parts to Bill, for him to effect the modifications.

Nothing is done to the power supply beyond Bill's initial rebuild. My suppy remained here during this last upgrade, so no way anything was modified beyond the motor chassis.

Also, regarding Dover
I've known the inventor of the mods for 25+ years and have followed the development of his system. Unfortunately there are many issues with his system outside of the turntable with which I have issues so I have to judge that particular SP10mk3 in that context. As the TT is in constant development I may or may not have heard his latest mods.

I viewed images of the MK3 that Richard owns and if I had not been told it was once a Technics I would not have recognized it. I have no idea if what was done makes it better or worse than original or how that fits with the mechanical mods he came up with.

Richard told me he was using Acoustat 2+2 speakers and all his electronics were built by him. Further separation from mainline components that one might use to judge total system performance.

For those reasons I'm not sure I could tell anything about the MK3 or any other table that might be put in play. Not saying there is anything wrong with what was done, more like listening to a system at a show where nothing is familiar and trying to offer an accurate assessment.
lewm
13,174 posts
 
Thanks, Albert. I thought I had been told that there were some mods to the outboard PS associated with your upgrades. I was obviously misinformed, or my memory is playing tricks. Is "Richard" the guy who invented or first devised the beneficial modification(s)? Even Dover admits in the quoted paragraph that he is unable to make a judgement regarding the modified MK3, because so much else about the system is in constant flux.
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albertporter
4,949 posts
 
Is "Richard" the guy who invented or first devised the beneficial modification(s)? Even Dover admits in the quoted paragraph that he is unable to make a judgement regarding the modified MK3, because so much else about the system is in constant flux.

Yes, Richard Krebs came up with the mods and worked out with Bill Thalmann to perform them stateside so customers don't ship all the way to NZ.

Richard told me he spent over fifteen years developing the mods and he (smiling) said he wish he could have been here to audition before and after the effect of the mods.

Seems he spent so many years developing it was always a bit at a time rather than all at once I experienced.

The mods are quite excellent and as I've posted before provided results that were completely unexpected. I was thinking quieter, more refined, more black background and instead heard drastic reduction in distortion, greater detail, better dynamics and opening up (greater transparency) of all frequencies but without any hardness or shrill added to the extreme highs.

What I'm looking forward to is someone doing the less expensive SP 10 MK2 mod. It would be interesting to hear how that goes up against a "stock" MK3.
dover
2,251 posts
 
Lewm,
Not offended at all. I have learnt a lot from the various verbal jousts. I'm a great believer in learning what not to do is equally as valuable if not more so in learning what to do.
I dont dislike the SP10mk3, for me the jury is out until I can hear one in my own system. Its on my to do list.
The SP10mk3 upon which Alberts latest mods are based, last I heard it, is mounted in an acrylic/lead/acrylic sandwhich, runs an ET2 heavily modified with custom acrylic manifold & other tweaks, and Shelter 901. The main issue for me are the speakers, Acoustat 2+2 heavily modded in a room that is barely 10ft square. The system in question for me lacks timing, cohesion and transparency but as you know this is a sum of the parts and I would not necessarily ascribe this to the TT.
Albert in an earlier post alluded to power supply mods, and not including the bearing mods, hence the confusion. I cant give you any more insight, but in terms of product improvement in general, you just keep working on the weakest points. It would appear that the latest mods as you mentioned above are more around stiffening up main chassis and mounts.
It would seem to me that reviewing the Kaneta and Cotter mods are quite thought provoking. Looking at the cross section Halcro provided a link to indicates that perhaps opportunites exist to not only stiffen up internal mounts, but decouple or eliminate as much as possible from the main bearing and motor.
lewm
13,174 posts
 
If it comes to that, I like what Steve Dobbins did to Mike Lavigne's Mk3, removing the motor entirely from its chassis and imbedding it in a solid plinth. I would be reluctant to do that with my Mk3 for fear of diminishing its value, and because it was NOS when I got it, kind of an historical object that also plays music. This did not prevent me from going all out with the plinth design and construction, however. I have held off on the Thalmann mods because of cost. Eventually, I will likely cave in and get it done. The Cotter and certainly the Kaneta mods pertain to the Mk2 only, I think. Also, I think Halcro's objection to the SP10 construction is relevant more to the Mk2 than the Mk3. (Maybe that will get a rise out of him.)

So, can you say what turntable(s) you do favor at this point in time? I myself am not ready to say that the Mk3 is clearly a winner vs the tweaked L07D, at least not yet. For sure, I could live happily with either one.
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