My highest praise - for Audiogon

Agree with all praise of A-Gon, but must agree with Artemus, Driver, and Ryan about the invalidity, in my view, of the auction complaint. I don't understand just where the supposed foul is that Trelja and JC are so upset about, and I *really* don't understand the animosity generated toward people who, in their estimation, were apparently willing to "overpay" for an item. This is what a free market allows for. It may indeed suck that somebody was willing to pay more than you for an item you really wanted, but what of it? Let it go. It's happened to me many a time, and the best thing for it is to just pretend it's as if you never bid the item in the first place. What else can you do? I routinely go onto ebay and bid the minimum bid for records that I'm interested in, but don't absolutely have to have. Most of these I will lose, but every so often one slips by under the wire and I get a record for a better than reasonable price. Does this make me a crook because I paid less than the "book" - the mythical "fair market value"? No - because I *was* the "market"! Then there are the times when I really do want a record, but decide not to bid my highest bid first, because I don't want the proxy to quickly inflate the market to the level of my maximum, in the case of there being significant other interest. Doing this, however, tends to mean that one must be prepared to watch the auction like a hawk, and to bid again right up to and including the very end. This, of course, is a risky proposition; I might be able to win with a bid lower than if I had max'ed 'er right out of the gate, but the chances are also greater to lose if I generate a last-minute bidding war, or am too busy to finish what I started. There's a lot to said for discouraging your opposition earlier than this by letting them run up against a relentless proxy. In any case, this is the nature of an auction - they can be nerve-racking, anxiety-causing, and deeply disappointing - in other words, as JC learned about himself, they are not for everyone. But this doesn't mean that they are by nature unfair (absent any fraud, of course). The best way for anyone to approach an auction is to know your limit before you start bidding, to stick to it, and to consider the process itself as a form of entertainment, a lot like betting on the ballgame or buying a lottery ticket: You may win, you may lose, but you took your joyride just by participating.

I guess the only thing I can say to those who do not see the dastardly ways of sniping is to correlate it to a sucker punch.

Yes, the guy who gets the last deadly shot in wins. Yes, if you really wanted to beat the guy you would have thrown the punch before the other guy was ready in a perverse shoe on the other foot thing. Yes, I already prefaced my comments by the "All's fair in love and war" mantra that is the ultimate license to screw anything or anyone in the universe.

The sports analogy is like comparing apple sauce to orange juice. I am a lunatic sports fan, and have never witnessed any game along the lines of this. Oh wait a minute, I forgot about Rosey Ruiz...

Fairness, equity, and looking someone in the eye are a better means of conducting oneself. At least, in my opinion. This isn't a perfect world, but I will support the Audiogon method over the alternative.

I apologize for this slipping into a disagreement. My real point is to thank Audiogon for doing things in a manner I see as a better way. I am glad it is different here than ebay, where all is fair in love and auctions, people are being taken in increasing numbers, and a the sounds of a growing backlash are becoming more and more audible.

Thanks again Audiogon, my good friends, and everyone here who makes it great!

I enjoy Audiogon. I haven't tried the auctions but there is a lot of very choice gear going through. I have bought off dealers here though and every transaction was excellent. I also enjoy the forum....sometimes I may stick my foot in my mouth but people here are gracious. And I do learn a lot. It always food for thought here....keep it coming.....

Yes, I love this place! :-)

I would like to comment on the Auctions here. The rules for Audiogon auctions are closer to what an auction is intended to do than the way eBay does it. Remember, fairness is established by BOTH sides of an agreement. An auction is defined specifically to maximize the potential selling price for the SELLER, not to lower the price for the buyer. However, it does so at an increased RISK to the seller. In the presence of a low-ball bid, if nobody is around willing to pay a higher price, the seller doesn't have the ability to say "Ahh, I've changed my mind so I'm gonna wait a couple weeks and try again". He has to give it away for the low-ball price. This is why auctions work--the same as the stock market. If you are willing to risk more, the potential for greater gains are there, but the potential for lower prices by the buyer are there as well. Note my use of the word "POTENTIAL" :-)

A normal auction (in order to maximize the seller's income) does not end at a particular time or bell. It goes until everyone has decided that they have made the highest bid that they are comfortable with. THEN the auctioneer closes the auction. Everyone has had a fair and equal chance to put in their highest bid. The auctioneer judges this by the SLOWDOWN in bidding. Why should an auctioneer ever stop the bidding at the peak of activity (as happens on eBay when the clock times out). The overtime concept of the Audiogon auctions allows the bidding to wind down the way it should.

The time limit is only an artificial constraint necessary to mimick the decision made by the auctioneer since a live autioneer is problematic for E-autions. The assumption is that everyone has put in their bid by the closing time. If the assumption is incorrect, then the "equal chance" component of an auction is violated and the potential for maximum income that the seller should have, is lost. Sniping at the end of an eBay auction not only can prevent a person that may have been willing to buy from achieving the purchase, it ALSO robs potential funds from the seller (Remember him? He's the guy that took the higher risk so that the bidders in return had an increased potential at getting a lower price)

Frequently a person bids higher than they wanted for a "great" price but until that bid is challanged, they don't know whether they are willing to go higher or not. This is where proxy bidding is flawed, it does not allow for this. As a result, when "brick-wall" timeout terminated auctions are used, a flurry of activity can ensue and techniques to "beat the system" become prevalent. My personal preference is for a more civilized approach :-) Bravo Audiogon for civility enforcement!! :-)

BTW, I have been guilty of sniping (although not maliciously). I discover at the last minute that I've been overbid but I could possibly obtain what I want by bidding another buck or two. I may win, but the person who may have been willing to pay many times more than me has been shut out simply because they weren't present at closing. IMHO, sniping has a predatorial feel to it that I don't personally like.

I prefer a system that is fair to everyone and doesn't tend to create large amounts of frustration. Saying that I could have made a much higher proxy bid 8 days ago isn't justification, but again, that is only my personal opinion. Obviously, it can be made to work anyway that the website developers choose. However, I don't like the frustrations that can start due to the "cabbage-patch doll syndrome" that occurs at the end of an eBay auction without overtime, so I tend to avoid them.

Anyway, there's a few thoughts for Y'all :-)

- Jeff

Excellent post Jawiseman! Well thought out and a balanced approach in the analysis. I agree with all of your comments 100%.