My highest praise - for Audiogon

Yes, I love this place! :-)

I would like to comment on the Auctions here. The rules for Audiogon auctions are closer to what an auction is intended to do than the way eBay does it. Remember, fairness is established by BOTH sides of an agreement. An auction is defined specifically to maximize the potential selling price for the SELLER, not to lower the price for the buyer. However, it does so at an increased RISK to the seller. In the presence of a low-ball bid, if nobody is around willing to pay a higher price, the seller doesn't have the ability to say "Ahh, I've changed my mind so I'm gonna wait a couple weeks and try again". He has to give it away for the low-ball price. This is why auctions work--the same as the stock market. If you are willing to risk more, the potential for greater gains are there, but the potential for lower prices by the buyer are there as well. Note my use of the word "POTENTIAL" :-)

A normal auction (in order to maximize the seller's income) does not end at a particular time or bell. It goes until everyone has decided that they have made the highest bid that they are comfortable with. THEN the auctioneer closes the auction. Everyone has had a fair and equal chance to put in their highest bid. The auctioneer judges this by the SLOWDOWN in bidding. Why should an auctioneer ever stop the bidding at the peak of activity (as happens on eBay when the clock times out). The overtime concept of the Audiogon auctions allows the bidding to wind down the way it should.

The time limit is only an artificial constraint necessary to mimick the decision made by the auctioneer since a live autioneer is problematic for E-autions. The assumption is that everyone has put in their bid by the closing time. If the assumption is incorrect, then the "equal chance" component of an auction is violated and the potential for maximum income that the seller should have, is lost. Sniping at the end of an eBay auction not only can prevent a person that may have been willing to buy from achieving the purchase, it ALSO robs potential funds from the seller (Remember him? He's the guy that took the higher risk so that the bidders in return had an increased potential at getting a lower price)

Frequently a person bids higher than they wanted for a "great" price but until that bid is challanged, they don't know whether they are willing to go higher or not. This is where proxy bidding is flawed, it does not allow for this. As a result, when "brick-wall" timeout terminated auctions are used, a flurry of activity can ensue and techniques to "beat the system" become prevalent. My personal preference is for a more civilized approach :-) Bravo Audiogon for civility enforcement!! :-)

BTW, I have been guilty of sniping (although not maliciously). I discover at the last minute that I've been overbid but I could possibly obtain what I want by bidding another buck or two. I may win, but the person who may have been willing to pay many times more than me has been shut out simply because they weren't present at closing. IMHO, sniping has a predatorial feel to it that I don't personally like.

I prefer a system that is fair to everyone and doesn't tend to create large amounts of frustration. Saying that I could have made a much higher proxy bid 8 days ago isn't justification, but again, that is only my personal opinion. Obviously, it can be made to work anyway that the website developers choose. However, I don't like the frustrations that can start due to the "cabbage-patch doll syndrome" that occurs at the end of an eBay auction without overtime, so I tend to avoid them.

Anyway, there's a few thoughts for Y'all :-)

- Jeff

Excellent post Jawiseman! Well thought out and a balanced approach in the analysis. I agree with all of your comments 100%.

BTW, I didn't mean to give the impression that I disapprove of the OT system that Audiogon has implemented (although I must admit that I didn't even know about it prior to reading this thread - thanks, Trelja!) - just that I don't agree with vilifying someone for taking advantage of the rules as they exist on eBay. eBay itself, and how they constuct their site, is another question entirely, and a perfectly legitimate one. I also have to admit that I do sometimes find myself bahaving in a strangely altruistic manner on eBay with regard to ends of auctions. If I place something on my "Watch" list that has one bid on it for the minimum, and no further activity takes place on it before the end of the auction, I could, if I'm looking at the auction just before it closes, decide to test the waters with the first bidder's proxy. But I don't believe I have ever done this. I usually start thinking to myself that I'd probably just wind up driving up their bid before dropping out anyway, so I leave it alone. Or even if I could win it by only bidding a small increment above the first bidder's price (unbeknown to me without trying, of course), I still feel some inhibition for probably ruining their day, and don't do it. So I suppose that, as it regards my own actions, this fact of my conduct does mean that I personally (if not universally in theory) side with Trelja on the morality (but not the ethics - they are different) of "sniping". Thinking about this brings to my attention the potentially significant fact that Audiogon does not incorporate a "Watch" feature one could use to tag auctions without actually bidding on them, and follow through "My Page". This is could be just as meaningful a gesture on Audiogon's part to discourage the practice Trelja abhors as the overtime feature itself. However, the presence of the somewhat similar-acting "Ending Auctions" button on this site, in conjunction with the OT, will probably tend to work in the seller's favor - as it undoubtedly should.

How silly of me to suggest a sports game wasn't over at the buzzer. It might really be true that the outcome is decided by armchair quarterbacks. Yep, state of the art timers & photo finishes are just for show.

Take ebay for what it is & leave it at that.

Great points, Jawiseman and Zaikesman.

You are a sports guru, Driver.

But, I would like to clue you in on OT in sports which you may not yet be familiar with. There is a buzzer at the end of the games in these sports, but believe it or not, it is possible to play on after the "official end" of the game. A short list would be baseball, basketball, football, hockey, and soccer. You might want check them out sometime, I personally find them quite enjoyable(soccer excepted).

And, many would argue that boxing was more pure, or barbaric - take your pick, when there was no preset number of rounds. The match ended when one person no longer answered the bell at the start of a round.