Wave Kinetics NVS Turntable - Stereophile Review

Dear Peterayer: +++++ " sharing these test data for various owners tables if we really want to "know" the truth. " +++++

IMHO the main subject is that almost no one " wants " to know the " true ", audio fun could disappear.

The " true " could tell us how wrong we are or how right we are or in between.

Right now we are really happy enjoying what we have and we almost don't care if it is wrong or not: " I like it and that's what matters ", this is a common sentence for almost all of us when we are questioned when we are on " serious " doubts about.
We always take the " easy " road: " I like it that way..... ".

Audio manufacturers know that so they neither care about the " true ".
Why to take the risk to know that some of their designs are way wrong and have no answers to fix it??????

So for almost every one it is more " healthy and with more fun " walk on the audio road at BLIND, almost.

As with TTs the situation/scenario is almost the same with tonearms or cartridges or electronics or speakers or...or....
Something that makes to know the " true " a little complex with TT is that's a mechanical device where the " results " of a design is not 100% predictable as can be with lectronic designs, at least I don't know and never read of a TT mathematic model that can predict a 100% result or very near to it.
Do you know any single person ( manufacturer, reviewer, audiophile, retailer, any. ) that could tell you what to measure and which kind of measures and where to measure and how to measure and how have we to blended those measures to predict TT results through different designs through different build material TT designs through different TT drive designs through different kind of TT bearing designs through a different price targets?

Problem is that no one cares about, till today no one took the " bull by its horns " and developed that mathematic TT model that could serve ( at least ) as a preliminar reference for TT designs or for electronic/speaker/cartridge/or whatever audio item designs.

Pro.Reviewers does not cares neither: it is a high risk for them that all of us could confirm how wrong they are or not at all.

So in absolutely " SILENCE " there is an agreegment already made it inside the AHEE where all we belongs and is sad and pity ( for say the least ) and almost a shame for all of us that are inside the AHEE to stay doing almost nothing about other than closing our ears/mind to suggestions for changes down there in favor of MUSIC in favor to IMPROVE TRUE IMPROVEMENTS on what we are experienced today.
Gentlemans, fun does not disappear only will change with those changes.
I don't know for all of you but for me thinking to have NEW AUDIO FUN EXPERIENCES ( true new audio experiences. ) is just EXCITING!!!!!!!

As I said: shame of the AHEE.

I have no doubt that we deserve what we have because all of us help to build it and still do it every day. I know for sure that all in the AHEE are a lot better ARCHITECTS that what we showed till today so: WHY NOT JUST LET IT GO! WHY NOT ADVANCE! WHY TO STAY STICKY WITH THE SAME FOR THE LAST 40 YEARS!.

HAVE WE THE RIGHT TO ADVANCE OR WE ALREADY LOSTED?

A good Agon friend of mine whom lived in the past for 15+ years with tube electronics changed to SS ones and today after several years with he is seriously thinking to come back to tubes again, to the " magic " he said!?!?!?!? and that's how we are and what we deserve. This is not a critic to this person that I respect but only an example how we help builded the today AHEE.
Could be wise for this person to think in a similar technology of what he own ( SS ) that could be an improvement?, because I know there are other way better designs out there that what he owns. Anyway, only as an example and nothing personal.

Don't you think is time to make true and real changes for the better? why more of the same if it is not wroking at all?. We are unsatisfied with what we have and almost every day we are changing what we have: TT, cartridges, cables, speakers, electronics, tonearms and the like.
We changed for something new hopping for a real improvement hopping to advance but after a few days/weeks or months we take in count that we advanced almost nothing and then we start again ( endless again. ) a new audio item hunting looking for that advance that almost never comes.

IMHO we have to make our selfs things happen!. We have to be the active actors/protagonist of this movie picture name it AHEE and not mere unsatisfied passive spectators waiting for?????????

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Raul, you are a designer of phonolinestage and a tonearm. During the development process, don't you reject ideas that don't work and try to create the best device you are capable of making? Or are you just one more designer going down a blind path? I don't understand from your last post how you propose to improve the process.

I did experience real progress when I installed air isolation devices under my turntable and amplifiers. I have the impression that you don't find that valid or even possible.

What is AHEE?

Peter: AHEE: Audio High End Establishment.

R.

Dear Raul, In your discourse you could not resist taking a shot at tube amplification vs solid state. There is no doubt that SS gear can easily be built to surpass most tube gear in terms of the commonly made measurements (THD, IMD, etc). However, in contradistinction to that finding we also have the testimony of legions of careful listeners who nevertheless prefer tubes (certain tube amplifiers, that is). Further, there are data to suggest that the commonly collected data used to characterize our amplifiers are wholly inadequate to predict what happens when they are asked to reproduce a true music signal. These two facts may indicate that tubes are doing SOMETHING better than SS. (Talking in generalities here; I concede that there may be some SS amplifiers that can "play" in the league with the best tube amplifiers and are better suited than tube amplifiers to drive some of the awful behemoth multi-driver, low efficiency, low impedance speakers that are on the market precisely because those humongous SS amplifiers are available to the high-end consumer.) My point is, if you are truly working on a higher plane and searching for a better world of music reproduction, it would behoove you to open your mind a bit more. In other words, you may be guilty of the very "head in the sand" thinking that you impute to others.

Dear Peter: Electronic design has several mathematic modeling computarized tools for circuit design and layout circuit design. We used those tools as a tool for our design and to help avoid errors/mistakes on the circuit/layout design but all those tools does not predict how the design will sound but could help to predict how it works at electrical level under different circumstances and how well works the different circuit stages stand alone and as aprt of the whole design. Yes, it is a useful tool to start with an audio item electronic design but as I said it is only to start.

The whole electronic design is more complex because it is not only dependent on the designer skills/knowledge but dependent on passive and active parts where even that two similar parts that measure exactly the same performs different and this fact makes " things " a little complex and time consuming.
No we don't designed at " blind " we use several tools and made it several tests of almost any kind.

Some famous electronic item designers as J.Curl choosed a very wise/clever road to design: he meet/asociated with other persons to design and build audio electronic items. He did it with that CTC Blowtorch phonolinepreamp where he was the circuit designer, C.Thompson the circuit layouts and B.Crump the test and parts selection.
Today he did it the same with his new electronic design audio items: Constellation Audio amplifier, line stage and phono stage. He joined other three experts to the whole design, now he only needs a good marketing manager.
Try to be surrounded with other designer experts is an alternative to design in better way when we have no " references/tools " about.

TT/tonearm design is a mechanical design a " mechanical circuit " against an electronic circuit. I'm not a TT designer or an expert about but from my ignorance level I don't know or I'm unaware of the existence of similar tools as with the circuit electronic design, at least I don't know it.

This TT " mechanical circuit " for me is almost unknow and I think that with out those modeling tools is almost impossible to know if the final product meets the design targets in an abjective manner. In electronic circuits we have several kind of references on how any part perform, each circuit part has the whole manufacturer specs with tolerances and limits for the part stay stable under any playback electrical/temperature scenario to performs at its best.

In the " mechanical circuit " we have almost nothing about we have almost no references to evaluate the operation and performance design.
Examples: which target can we choose on a TT design for S/N ratio or wow&fluter or platter weight or whci build or blend material we must use?, 100db is the right spec for S/N, why not 60db 04 75db? 0.001% on W/F is the right " figure " or is enough 0.28%? which kind of vibrational energy ( coming from every where but mainly inside the TT. ) and at which " output levels " must be avoided in the TT design because the cartridge take it as part of the recorded grooves and will be amplified? how and at what level have we to stop/disappear the self TT vibrational energy feedback, how ? why aluminum or acrilyc or steel or brass or which kind of blend TT build materials are the ones that fulfil the targets at each circuit/stage in the whole TT mechanical circuit? how to handle and stop the vibrational energy generated between the stylus/LP and TT platter and its feedback? 3.0kg. on the TT platter is right or we need 200kgs and why. We really need that crazy weight, in favor of what? is it true that more mass/weight produce or could produce higher vibrational energy to deal with?

I think I have more questions than answers. Another problem with mechanical circuits as the TT and tonearm is that are not stand alone circuits but that are " slaves " of the cartridge and it is this intimate relationship the real " trouble " to success.

I don't know what you expected from what I could answer to you post. There are several subjects around there almost endless to post about and as I said I'M not an expert on TT but I know some TT experts/designers are reading this thread and could be healthy to everyone that they decide to put some " light " on the whole TT subject posting here.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.