Direct drive vs belt vs rim vs idler arm

01-28-13: Richardkrebs
Dover The jitter artefact, as Mosin quite correctly points out, is not limited to the Technics line, he hears it in DDs in general.
Actually my testing and listening has shown it to be present in any motor that uses feedback be it local feedback ( self correction) as in free running motors like those in most BDs / idler drives or global feedback as in DDs. That is it occurs in all motors. Since all TTs have motors ......

Hi Richard/Mosin

Looking to learn and substantiate what I hear.

Can you please describe the feedback you are “hearing”

Differences in sound between local and global feedback ?

Thanks

Ct0517.
In my view both types of feedback have a distinct sound in their "as built" states. Firstly I need to state two things.
1) I have a commercial interest in this topic, so you may want to take that into consideration.
2) How a machine is designed and how it is built are often completely different things. The designer makes a number of assumptions on the motor and feedback performance. Commercial reality can get in the way of these assumptions being realised.

This is what I hear.
Global feedback when carefully designed, but not properly put together, creates a tension in the music, a greyness. The music does not flow and does not properly connect with the listener. It is not servo overshoot, hunting or cogging. This sound is what the BD people talk about. This problem, in my opinion, can be largely removed.

Local feedback is softer and slower to respond to demand, it creates a slurring effect. The music is slightly blurred like a soft focus lens. Drive and dynamics are diminished.
My research into motors has shown that this can be reduced only slightly. The method of coupling the motor to the platter is immaterial, as this effect is built into the motor itself. This is why I have pushed my view that global feedback is neccessary, regardless of the drive method employed. It is the reduced "drive" that the DD people talk about.

Of the two, if I had to choose, I would take local. That was before I found a way to mitigate the problems of global feedback.

I hope that this helps.

Ct0517,

I probably hear the same things that Richard hears, or more appropriately, I miss the same things that Richard misses. Mainly, dynamics suffer. Some dynamic information is missing, and micro dynamics are smeared. Subtleties in the high registers and midrange seem clumped together a bit. It can be difficult to notice at times unless you are very familiar with the music, but it really apparent to me with well recorded piano pieces. Transients suffer, in particular. I will say that I could possibly live with some of the machines that are flawed because some are better than others. Still, it is there. We are getting somewhat nit picky, but that's what high-end is about, right?

Like Richard, I have a commercial interest, so bear that in mind. You may want to carefully make some comparisons for yourself, however. I believe you will hear it, especially if you have the opportunity to make some A-B comparisons.

Dear Thuchan, Once you get all the way to a "5-way" horn system, I should hope there would be good response at the audio frequency extremes. Most horn lovers insist on making do with one or at most two drivers for the full range, as I am sure you know.

Hi Richard/Mosin

Thanks for your posts and more information on local and global feedback which is what I was really looking for. Sorry for not being a little clearer. I would like to delve further into the technical nature of local and global feedback, but maybe on another thread?
Thanks again for the info.

Mosin,
You may want to carefully make some comparisons for yourself, however. I believe you will hear it, especially if you have the opportunity to make some A-B comparisons.

Mosin, I did these comparisons already a while back, and they are the reason I ended up where I am today. I documented my results and opinions as an end user. If interested seek out Goldilocks on my system page. Warning – Sense of humor a prerequisite before venturing to her. :^)
Cheers Chris