2. analog
  3. 1393447894

Are there other Artisan Fidelity TT owners aorund?

So after being an audio hobbyist since my uncle got me going down this demented path some 17 years ago I finally purchased a TT. I had flirted with the idea for a very long time but honestly I've heard a number of TT's at shows and at buddies homes and none of them moved me. Now obviously many many variables are involved. Lets start with, was their TT setup correctly (superlatively).., I don't know. Was the arm/cartridge combination simpatico.., again, I don't know. Was the phono preamp just so-so or great and if it was great was the cartridge loaded correctly.., you get my drift.

So with my digital down through the years easily besting (to my ears) the analog I'd been privy to, I found no reason to spend the money required to involve myself with analog. My former Bidat easily dispatched a SOTA Cosmos Vacuum TT in a head to head listening session. Ditto for my former Dynavox Dynastation.., same with my AMR DP777...etc.

At Axpona last year I listened to the $170K Clearaudio TT along with about $85K worth of Pass Amplification and perhaps $200K worth of JM Labs speaker and cabling only to be more moved by the sound from the Playback Design MPD-5 in the same room.

Finally I realized the only way I would ever find out for myself would be to purchase my OWN TT and make sure it was expertly setup and dialed-in. I had a rare chance to purchase a latest-revision-pristine example of a Graaf GM70 Phono Preamplifier. I have a soft spot for Graaf as Mr. Mariani simply builds the finest gear I have laid ears on. So now I have this phono pre sitting in the box for a few months when I see a SP 10 MK III come up for sale in Agon. So, I threw caution to the wind and contacted Chris at Artisan Fidelity; after some conversation I hung up having just commissioned the building of a SP10 MKIII Next Gen TT.

I was happy for about a month then the fear started to creep in, "what have I done?". What if this thing SUCKS!!!! and my digital system which is very very very good if I do say so myself stomps it!

During the build I researched and read tons of user reviews (I don't really pay attention to so-called pro reviewers) on arms and cartridges. I finally settled (with a lot of talking to Chris and other friends and a lot of late night web searching) on the Kuzma 4 Point and the Ortofon MC Anna.

So, here we are today and I have had my TT for a little over 3 weeks now and I have about 150 - 160 hours on the rig. Early on it sounded ok, you know.., good but nothing special. I liked it but my digital was fully up to the task and in some cases much better :) (now I'm scared)

Ok, so fast forward to 100 hours.., ok, I think I'm starting to understand all this analog hype :) better and better. now we are at 150 hours.., the word SUBLIME comes to mind. The spaciousness, openness and natural continuity of the analog is addictive. The dynamics seem to go on forever along with a naturalness that is very difficult to put into words. I did purchase the Furutech Demag, the Destat II, a scale..., all the toys to go along with it :) Again, I wanted to know for myself and the only way to do that was to take the plunge.

So how does my digital hold up? Well, my well run-in long time AMR DP777 has NOTHING to be ashamed of. It sounds great and I can easily go from the TT to the DP without too much shock (the AMR guys are big vinyl heads and use vinyl as a reference when designing) BUT... when I have two equally well recorded pieces of music (Best of Eva Cassidy comes to mind or Diana Krall Live in Paris 24/96 vs 180g/45) as good as my digital sounds the SP10MK III simply walks away. Again the digital is not trodden underfoot and indeed 20 seconds of the digital and you will be into it fully, but the analog rig beguiles with its effervescent ease and infinite continuity of musical flow.

Ok, so to end this long synopses.., I am now deeply into analog and have been going to local used record stores and burning up my cc on Music Direct and Acoustic Sounds...etc.

The folks at Artisan Fidelity are the real deal and they built me a museum quality +180 pound Porsche Basalt Black TT/piece of art that sounds AMAZING!!!!

I also ordered a Bassocontinuo Apogeo rack for the table which should arrive in about 2 weeks. I am enjoying my foray into the land of analog!!!

THANKS CHRIS!!!!!!!
audiofun
richardkrebs
422 posts
 
Audiofun.

Agree, in the end it is about the music and only the music.
richardkrebs
422 posts
 
Audiofun
You raise a valid point in asking what my upgrade actually entails. Prospective customers need this information. You also accuse me of "straw man arguments", something I cannot let slide.
Hopefully I can address both of your points at once.
My upgrade consists of 5 separate but, in some,cases interrelated procedures, on the SP and now other motors. We are talking here about the SP10 motors so, I will confine this discussion to them.
The areas worked on are:
. Motor stator chassis
. Bearing support
. Stator
. Commutation
. Speed sensing

Taking these one at a time:

I first addressed the motor chassis. In spite of the millions of R&D dollars spent, in my view, Technics did not pay particular attention to the loop between platter and arm. This in the form of rigidity and resonance control.
One only need to look at the LO 7d to see how this should be done.
My upgrade improves this situation by helping to control resonances in the motor chassis. In standard form it is quite resonant and flexible.
This change produces an immediate and unambiguous improvement.

I then cast my attention to the bearing. Not actually the bearing itself which is quite good, but not up to the standard of the inverted bearing used in the P3. Again loop rigidity is compromised by the "as built" structure. My upgrade significantly improves this situation. Again this is clearly and unambiguously audible.

Now I started work on the stator. This is where things became most confusing. I made changes that I was sure would be an improvement, but in fact it was actually different and not necessarily better. Pulling apart the motor numerous times over many years in order to solve this mystery led only to frustration. The changes were reversed and reinstalled too many times to count. The stator with the changes in place was electro-mechanically stiffer, but I did not like the effect. The greyness or "Jitter" that I refer to on my web site was even more apparent.

The breakthrough came late in 2011, early 2012 when I turned my attention to the commutation and speed measuring mechanisms. Again with reference to the LO 7d and motors in the JVC line up, I consider the the Technics SPs to be inferior. Even in comparison to their own SL-1200.

As I'm sure you know, precise commutation is mandatory if the goal is low torque ripple. Within the standard architecture the commutation can be made more accurate.

Lastly I worked on the speed measuring mechanism. Again it will be appreciated that accurate speed measurements are a prerequisite to accurate dynamic speed control. As built, I do not consider the SPs to be particularly great in this area and we are perusing greatness. IMO, even the humble motor used in the DD Goldmund studio has a superior speed measuring mechanism. But the SP can be significantly improved.

Working on the last two areas now showed, without doubt, that the stator changes were indeed positive. A motor with the high torque to moment of inertia ratio that exists in the MK3 can easily get itself into trouble if it's controller is not feeding it the correct, corrective signal.

Do I have the resources to objectively measure the effect of these changes. No, but as I said earlier, we do not listen to measurements.

So why bother with the SP10 at all if it has so many compromises? I believe that the motor must exercise absolute control over the platter. While others advocate low torque high inertia drives, my preference is for high torque high inertia. The MK 3 is definitely in the latter camp. It's DRIVE is addictive.
There are a number of materials used in my upgrade, most of them man made. The organic material used is the same as that employed by Duelund in some of their products. Once dry it is stable and enduring.

This brings me to your initial posting on the subject.
As you know, I am endeavouring to contact your friend who owns the MK3.
I stand by my work and that of my agents. If it transpires that it is indeed my upgrade, clearly something has gone terribly wrong and I will do my best to make it right. If it is not my work, I will still try to help him out as, hopefully I can bring some knowledge to the situation.

Cheers.
audiofun OP
799 posts
 
I have the 1985 review on this table as well as the original MK3 Service Manual; the MK 3 is one of the most Stable Accurate Tables in the world even by todays standard so I would say the speed measuring system was always world class/leading. Either way I have read your rebuttal and I don't have much to add.
As I stated, my point was to alert peope that an oil, probably linseed oil was being placed inside their MK3 turntables. As I am sure a great number of people are now aware of this (that an oil is being applied to the inside of the table and I do not mean on bearings but in places that make absolutely no sense to this engineer like the inner wells/walls under the platter of the table and I think on the cricuit boards themselves of the power supply and table internal electronics (at least from what I saw)) fact.

If people want to do this to their MK3's more power to them. I wish you the best. With do respect I really have nothing more to offer related to this topic, I truly believe enough info is NOW out there for folks to intelligently decide for themselves about this modification to the SP10 MK3.
sonofjim
557 posts
 
I should have more sense than to jump in on a flame war and I make no claim of engineering genious but here's my opinion.
I'm a big fan of the Mklll. I own two and have enjoyed them every day. One of the best designs ever? Probably. It's too bad they're so hard to find and not available to more people. When I first acquired one I reguarded it as a precious relic to not be blastphemed by further modification and I would understand anyone seeing it that way. My outlook has since changed though and I no longer put it on a pedestal. It is my turntable, a music machine. As good as it was when it was produced there is no creation out there that cannot be improved upon either with new materials, things overlooked or higher quality parts.
If the original Mklll was perfect why would we use after market plinths as Richard mentioned. Why do we strip away the factory chassis for direct mounting and rebuild the power supply using modern parts? One of my Mkllls has even had the sinister Krebs mod to no ill effect I can assure you. I don't think guys like Bill Thalman and Albert Porter would be on board with the mod if it was destroying national treasures. What of Chris Thornton's remarkable modifications to the venerable 301 in his Statement design? Is that desecration? I think it's improvement.
It's up to the individual owner to do what they see fit. If you find a classic car in your grandma's garage you can restore it to factory specs or chop it and hot rod the engine. Either approach is acceptable and neither destroys the car. I choose to optimize performance and not worry about whether I have a museum piece or not. I think the mods in question were well thought out and concerns over this oil have been blown out of proportion. I say do what you prefer and enjoy the music. The Mklll itself is near bullet proof.
audiofun OP
799 posts
 
Sonofjim, I sort of agree with you and have basically said as much. Not that you accused me of saying the MK3 was perfect but since I started this diatribe; I don't believe that the MK3 is perfect, BUT I will say they got closer than most. My concern was that this applied oil was heretofore not mentioned. I wanted people to know what was actually being done to these machines; I feel I have succeeded. I also do not consider this a flame-war (at least I don't consider myself at war with anyone :) but rather an intelligent discourse and as we have both stated, to each their own. People now have the knowledge of what is being done to there MK3's.

I thought I was clear about this but perhaps not, I have no problem with mods on anything, (except molesting air cooled 911's :) I just happened to see the interior of one of these modded turntables. It was an oily mess and that is simply a fact.

So once more, this is not about an inanimate object being sacrosanct, it is about informing people of what is actually happening to their TT's, remember, before this thread, I don't think the core of this mod was public knowledge. I saw no evidence of anything else in the machine other than a plethora of oil slathered around. This is quite a bit different than installing Harmonix or Still Point footers or a better plinth or Hexfred diodes...etc.

Concerning the original Technics Chassis.., yeah, I don't know what they were thinking :) It's like they did all the heavy lifting and then got tired LOL. Or the "A" team finished the hard work and then handed off the final housing design to the "B" team.

One more time.., people now know the deal, to quote Richard himself.., "Caveat Emptor".
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