Rega RP10 VTA shims


I am sure this applies to the RP8 as well. But I have an RP10 and bought two of the 2mm shims to accommodate the VTA of a Kleos cartridge. My dilemma is that the single shim does tighten the bass to where i prefer but the highs and mids drift from what I prefer. With both shims the highs and mids are, in my opinion, exactly what I want, but the bass control starts to slip away. Does any one know of a 3mm shim? I think that would bring everything into line. I will experiment with tracking force, but am reluctant to drift to far from 1.75 which was ideal on my old LP12. I looked at Acoustic Signature but this are drilled for the RP6 which uses a smaller screw. Also I am considering the Groove Tracer counterweight, but I really don't see that as the correct solution for this issue, but rather a tweak once the VTA is corrected. So my question is, anyone have an RP8 or 10 that has come across this issue and have you found a different supplier of shims for the Rega. I have thought about filing my extra 2mm down but realize I cannot maintain a perfectly flat surface.
128x128theo
Drubin, here is the link;

http://www.needledoctor.com/Acoustic-Signature-Shim-Set-for-Rega-Tonearm

Also
http://shop.generubinaudio.com/Acoustic-Signature-Spacers-for-Rega-Tone-Arms-859758961793.htm

I ordered today but upon further investigation, Gene Rubin appears to provide 4 shims whereas NeedleDoctor provides only 3 for only 4.00 more.
I am going to re-order once I get a confirmation from Needle Doctor. Unfortuneatley they are closed till Monday.

Also these are for a RP 6 and the RP8/RP10 use a larger screw, so I will need to drill the hole a little larger
but that shouldn't be much of an issue.
Dear Theo: Your idea to get as close as possible with the ready-made 0.5mm incremented shims to validate the SRA trend, then follow up with a custom job, sounds like an excellent plan to me. Good thinking!

I still recommend that when you have the custom shims made, you make a number of them in varying thickness, since not all LPs are of the same thickness.

>what is your advice on de-magging Lyra cartridges? I see small metal filings, I have no idea how they get there playing vinyl, but I see them in my magnifing glass?

"Demagging" or fluxbusting a ferrous-core MC cartridge is a low-level process intended to "reset" the magnetic alignment of the ferrous core (over which the signal coils are wound) to the magnetic field. Doing so will not exert any significant effect on the magnets or magnet yokes (unless the magnet is vintage Alnico or a similarly weak material), and will therefore not be effective in removing ferrous particles that have collected on the magnets or magnet yokes.

The ferrous metal particles that you saw with your magnifier exist in the environment (including the LPs and their sleeves), and are attracted to the very powerful magnetic field that energizes the signal coils. Any cartridge with powerful magnets (not only Lyras) will suffer from this to a greater or lesser extent.

The existence of these tiny ferrous particles is why we cover our private parts (aka gap and coils) with a pressed-paper "washi" dustcover. Other companies use a thin rubber skin (white, gray, black are typical colors), and so have we on occasion. But in our experience, the washi does a better job in allowing pressure waves inside the gap to dissipate, and sounds better.

That said, the cantilever moves in a big way when VTF is applied and removed, requiring that the hole in the front magnet (front yoke for other cartridge manufacturers) is clearly larger than the cantilever diameter. This leaves a ring-shaped space between the two. Over time, the aforementioned ferrous particles will find their way into this space and collect there, also within the gap.

So the washi (or rubber) dust cover slows down the ingress of the tiny ferrous particles, but does not prevent it completely.

When the amount of collected particles becomes excessive, it can hamper the movement of the cantilever, thereby impairing performance. We see these all the time on cartridges that are returned to us for servicing. Since the particles' ferrous composition causes them to adhere securely to the magnet (or yoke), they won't always come off easily. The best way to get rid of them is to clean them off carefully and thoroughly by hand.

We clean off this ferrous buildup, along with other grime that may have collected where it shouldn't be, as an integral part of our inspection and servicing program for any of our cartridges that is returned to us (caveat - the cartridge must not have been retipped or rebuilt by any other company). We don't charge for doing this.

OTOH, given the painstaking nature of the particle removal process, I can easily understand why companies such as Soundsmith or Andy Kim would perhaps want to ask payment for this.

In many cases, a thorough cleaning of the stylus, and / or the magnetic gap surrounding the cantilever, is all that a cartridge needs to sound pristine again. Of the cartridges are returned to us nominally because the owner feels that the stylus or suspension is worn or damaged, frequently the problem is stylus buildup that prevents the stylus from touching the LP groove properly, or accumulated ferrous particles that clog up the cantilever's freedom of movement.

BTW, if you have the opportunity, please read the following thread, from page 3 to the end.

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?14082-Sme-30-2/page3

It talks about the factors that affect cartridge loading, but unlike similar threads here on Audiogon, or the Kleos' user manual, there are frequency charts and test schematics which should give you a better visualization of what happens.

kind regards, jonathan carr
Mr.Carr, thank you once again for your insightfull response to my question. What an education, you have provided me and the readers of this thread. I had no idea all this was taking place inside the cartridge and that the process or service from Lyra was available to restore the cartridge's performance by the cleaning. I guess my next question(s)is, how long does this take and where do I send it? I wouldn't do this for a few months as the summer time seems to my lowest listening time of year. And I want to get the table fine tuned with the shims I have on order and enjoy it for a time before it takes a leave of absense.
Is this something I should do thru my dealer or can I send it direct, that latter being my preference?
Again thank you, you have provided a wealth of information of not only Lyra but cartridges in general.

Thank You
Theo
As a follow up, first off, a sincere expression of gratitude to Mr.Carr for his advice. I received and installed my 3.5mm shims and readjusted everthing accordingly last night. I was a little hard to get out of bed this morning as I couldn't stop listening last night.
This brought everything into focus, the bass is deep and controlled, the mids and highs have a very natural presentation. The sound stage opened up and lifted off the floor. I could go on and on, but the jest of this is, if you own a RP8 or RP10 and a Lyra Kleos, get the Acoustic Signature shims referenced above or have a custom 3.4MM shim made. I just wanted share my success story. By the way after years with an LP12 that was in perfect tune from the dealer, I am not looking back with any remorse. This RP10 equals and may exceed performance of that table. I am very happy and am picking up my new custom dustcover later today, as I am using this in the "skeletal" mode and have the plinth and dustcover packed away. Rega has realy outdone themselves.
Dear Theo: Lyra doesn't nominally provide a separate cleaning service, and heaven forbid were this the case! We are heavily backlogged in our production, and the single person who builds all Lyra cartridges is the same one who takes care of all servicing issues, including inspection and cleaning. If we were to provide a standalone cleaning service, we'd be even farther behind in delivering cartridges than we already are.

Usually what happens is that we get a cartridge back because it doesn't track properly, doesn't sound right, is a low-rider, or whatever. We will look at the cartridge, test it, listen to it, and take care of whatever is wrong with the cartridge, and that automatically includes cleaning. Unless the user specifically requests us to do so, we prefer not to perform any more deep surgery than is necessary to bring the cartridge back to good health, since doing so would take more time (thereby eating into our limited production time), and cost the user money.

In your case, the best plan would be to keep listening to your Kleos, and looking at it periodically through the magnifying glass. If the cartridge starts to sound decidedly "off", or if looking through the magnifying glass makes it appear that the magnet area is encrusted in black pepper or rare spices (smile), then send us back the cartridge.

Lyra handles any and all service issues through the dealer that you originally bought the cartridge from (or the national distributor). It makes life much easier for us when we can deal with bulk returns of a dozen or 20 cartridges at a time, rather than needing to write paperwork or visit the shipping depot for each and every cartridge.

With our present backlog in production and servicing, frankly it could take 8-10 weeks before we can turn an order around.

Normally we take care of service cartridges in the chronological order that we receive them, but it always helps us if the owner can write a memo describing what he thinks is wrong with the cartridge, and sticks the memo to the cartridge box (so that we can read the memo without opening the contents).

BTW, I strongly recommend preventative maintenance. While it may not be advisable to attempt any action about the ferrous particle issue, the stylus should be cleaned frequently. I can hear the buildup on the stylus after one LP side, and therefore I normally clean the stylus after each side. If I am feeling lazy, I may only clean the stylus after one LP.

Preventative maintenance will definitely extend the useful playing life of the cartridge, which we certainly welcome (as it lessens our workload), and I am sure that you do, too (smile).

As an aside, do you feel that the material of the shim affects the sound above and beyond the revised VTA? I wouldn't be surprised if a duralumin shim, brass shim, stainless steel shim all affect the sound in somewhat different ways.

kind regards and hth, jonathan