Skeletal vs Plinth style turntables

Not a believer in magic - not even david copperfield? paul daniels?

PB
actually that's the kind of magic I assumed you meant. Let me qualify a little.
I know this kind of 'magic" is all tricks deep down.
Oh, oh.....sorry to disappoint anyone reading here that believes in it.
(memories of telling my younger brother that Santa Claus was not real just went through me)
Well, you did not hear it here..... ok ?

I guess this kind of magic just doesn't register as anything memorable and lasting to me.
I can't explain it. Maybe my career line of work has conditioned me in a certain way here.

How about the Audio Foolery that happens in my/our rooms? I enjoy it greatly and can't live without it as an audiophile. but it is not magic.
It can be recreated in other rooms by many others.
But the music itself, which even when heard in your car and causes a reaction ...that is a bit of magic to me as a music lover.

Now think about this one... how about a comedian?
Someone that can go to a foreign country where they speak a different language, have a different culture and values.
And then do a show that discusses the same, and makes them laugh in their own house.
That..... IS a little bit of Magic to me.

Two honorable mentions

4 lb small mouth bass on 2 lb fishing line.

When the wife pulls my keys out of her bosom, and allows me to drive my summer car;
Even though she makes me take her to go buy ice cream.

PB
If you can make this cold weather go away. hmmm....
Make it happen first, then I will let you know.

As much as I enjoy reading purely hypothetical arguments about how arm-pods of substantial weight and with high co-efficients of friction will move due to stylus drag.

I believe that there are so many possible movements in: the tone-arm and armboard, the turntable chassis on it's supports, the platter mat, the lp, and as we know changes in speed of the platter - that will all absorb that force to varying degree. Making the movement of the arm-pod theoretically negligible. And certainly negligible in reality (based on years of direct observation).

What is imho the more important aspect of plinth vs skeletal - the absorption and propagation of vibrations deserves most of the discussion.

I never understood the argument that the shelf becomes the plinth. The shelf is a constant, plinth or no. And, that shelf being anything from the flimsiest free-standing crud to ultra-sophisticated designs anchored to brick walls it is impossible to imagine a single statement of its' theoretical contribution.

I just want to say that having run both plinthed and skeletal set-ups for many years my ears are on the skeletal design. My eyes, on the other hand, like a nice plinth as much as the next guy. But music being what it is I will run plinthless for as long as I have a turntable to do it.

Halcro, I read your Feikert results just the opposite of your statement. The Direct Drive has superior numbers. Have you mixed them up, or am I missing it?

Hi Aigenga
In all fairness I am not a fan of armpods as I think they are a bit clumsy and add-on in my view as opposed to those being part of the plinth. Likewise forming part of the whole plinth/turntable just strikes me as a heck of a lot tidier and means that it can't be knocked out of the way so to speak.
Armpods of themselves don't render a plinth as skeletal - likewise, one can be skeletal like the Rega (Naid I think) and not have a pod.

Sorry Aigenga,

I should have been more explicit.
I was answering Chris' question about the Raven and its 'slight' retardation when viewed against the Timeline and then compared it to the Feikert figure for the same thing.
What most people don't realise (including apparently Michael Fremer) is that the Feikert App is primarily designed to measure and indicate Wow and Flutter. It does this against a benchmark tonal frequency recorded on a test disc of 3150Hz. The closer the measured frequency is reproduced to 3150Hz....the closer it indicates that the platter is spinning at precisely 33.33rpm.
For all the other figures in the Feikert App.....the Raw and Filtered Deviations....they are simply measured against the 'actual' platter speed regardless of how close to 33.33rpm it might be...?
For instance..if your platter were spinning at 31.06rpm but had little Wow and Flutter...the Feikert App figures would show -0.01%/+0.01% Max Deviation.
It simply doesn't care much what your platter is spinning at...😢
Would you be happy with this...❓👀
In the case of the Raven speed...the Feikert shows 3149.4Hz (0.6Hz below the correct speed of 3150Hz) against the VPI Direct speed of 3154.5Hz (4.5Hz above the correct speed of 3150Hz).
Here is Harry Weisfeld talking about the vintage DD turntables in relation to his VPI Direct and he makes a valid point about the weaknesses of the arms often bundled with the old classic decks.
Until you've heard a TT-101 with a really great tonearm (as you know)...and separate armpods are a great way to hear this.....you haven't really heard how great a table this really is...😎

And despite having 35 years of technological supremacy over the TT-101...together with the Thingap revolutionary motor which claims to possess zero cogging....Harry still can't match the performance figures of the big Victor...👀❓

Henry- in your last post you mentioned your Armpod Clan again.
The Op (PB) is interested in discussing plinths. Skeletal versus Full Plinths.
Stay the course man. Start Copernican 2.

I do however have some new anecdotal evidence for you however.
For the others be warned what follows is not pretty.
You see my almost 20 lb armpod was responsible for beheading my XV1 many years ago.
Yes....that is how I remember it now. And I am sticking to my story. It makes me feel better.
You see, Instead of removing the cartridge (proper) and doing required solder work on the wire lead at the turntable location.
An isolated and quiet area....
I decided out of convenience (laziness) to "bring" the whole pod enchilada with tonearm, cartridge and wiring attached, to my busy work area.
While moving the pod to adjust for a better sight angle, a slight tug was felt.
The nightmare was in play. The well endowed XV1 was toast.
The coldness that followed led to my first out of body experience.

So I bolted the bastard down to not tempt me again. Alas I can't be trusted.
Screw the obvious fact of flexibility in changing out things especially if you are tonearm bi(a)tch.
But I am a one tonearm, one cartridge kind of guy, you know ?
Screw as well the ability to continually refine your alignment for better sound with an armpod.
You see what the ANAL Armpod users don't want to confess to; is that "The Armpod" actually teases you if you don't try this, every week.... month.
And Henry has four of them. Hmmm....

You know, the ANALog pivot arm guys like to play this game where they keep trying new alignments, to try to move the two points on the record that their pivot arm arm can track best at.
Well with the armpod, no movement of cartridge in its shell is necessary to accomplish this.
You just need to become very good at Lewm's Armpod Drag "Dance".

Sorry to digress PB. Alas still waiting for you to do your magic with this cold weather ....
I see NY was at -15 celsius this morning. You know, once it hits -10 celsius it really doesn't matter how much lower it goes.

To get back on track maybe a question out of curiosity.

PB or anyone else.
Does anyone out there still make a full plinth turntable; one with no removable and/or pivoting armboards ?
A full plinth that requires one to drill a hole or tap holes for their tonearm into the beautiful plinth itself.
Imagine the stress level in installing the tonearm ?
Unless its a Dynavector DV505 which has enough weight - by design - to just sit on top of the plinth if you like.
Hey ..maybe this makes it the first armp..... oh oh..there I go again.