Cable "burning": Real or VooDoo ???

70242,

I believe you've misread my scribblings. Nowhere have I expressed a fear of DBTs. In fact, I think they have their uses; but the measurement-only crowd ( among whom you seem to number ) puts too much emphasis on them. Put another way, the numbers folks display an almost religious passion in their belief that if it can't be measured, it can't be heard. There is a staggering amount of anecdotal evidence that contradicts that.

I ain't afraid of DBTs, merely think their capability of resolving subtle differences is overdone.

I do believe, again, do believe that eventually the things we benighted listeners hear, and which you do not, will be amenable of quantification: the technology to measure these things just isn't sophisticated enough. Electronic instrumentation is not nearly refined enough to search out the things the human auditory system can perceive.

Jadem6: Okay, PLEASE tell me what methods for comparison you prefer, and what steps you take for eliminating prejudices and biases and ensuring that evaluations are made solely on what is audible. If you have a better way, please tell us what it is.

Albertporter: In what way do I or Stevemj reject "finding what works?" That is precisely our point, to accurately find what works. I do not fit your profile of the people you know in audio? I'm okay with that. And I've been involved with a few state of the art audio products here and there, too, with more in the chute.

Adamanteus: You contradict yourself sharply. You label us the "measurement only" crowd (which is not true; measurement is a tool for understanding and refining designs, circuit behavior, etc., not an end in itself), and then decry our insistance on DBT, which involves listening and nothing else, including measurement.

Also, electronic instrumentation (which has nothing to do with double-blind testing) _can_ detect stuff that not even the most golden ear among us can hear, but that doesn't mean everything that can be measured is useful.

I don't know what rules or laws apply in this forum. Apparently not Ohm's Law, laws of physics, etc. ;)

Jerie: In what way is Stevemj "inexperienced, ignorant," blah, blah, blah? He exhibits a strong knowledge of audio, which I find to be a very refreshing change of pace here.

It's inane to me to talk about this being better than that, and then reject making a fair and direct head-to-head comparison between them to see if it's true and to what degree. Why have races with a start and a finish line? Gee, we'll just _discuss_ which car and driver are faster and more skilled and choose the winner that way. Let's nip this baseball season in the bud; everybody knows the best team is ... who?

7, i think that you'll find that sometimes electrical measurements VERIFY what we hear even though it would not show up under "normal" test procedures. Moncrieff did reviews of products and talked about ( others still do it today ) product X having a "blacker background" than product Y and product Z. The differences between he and the current breed is that he actually showed the differences via scope photos that product X actually had deeper nulls on the negative going portions of the same signals than either product Y or Z. Is it possible for someone to hear such absolutely minute discrepancies in signal ??? I guess so because he was able to make note of such things BEFORE measuring them. Keep in mind that we are talking duration lengths of microseconds and output level differences of microvolts at best. This is NOT recognized by the scientific community as being "above the accepted minimum hearing threshold", etc....

I also know where your coming from as someone that makes a living working with electrical measurements. I don't think that we know everything about how such things work and try to keep an open mind about them. Measurements DO give us something to compare and baseline one product against another while explaining SOME of the if's and why's to us. Besides that, they give us a baseline for repeatability as to how something works "normally". The problem is that many of the actual "industry standard" test procedures may not be up to the level of discernment that the actual equipment is capable of doing or to what we can hear. THIS is what causes many of the problems that the "regulars" on this site and several others have problems with. Just because something measures similar under specific test conditions DOES NOT mean that it HAS to perform the same under dynamic use. There are specific test parameters that are followed, but who is to say that they are measuring the "most correct" criteria as to what we consider important when listening ???

I think that your approach of refining circuitry via measurements AND listening tests is about the only way that this industry will make progress. Obviously we've been the way of "best measurements" via SS electronics in the 70's and we've all heard how most of that sounded. Sean
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702442: Allow me to retort. It is difficult for me and many others on this site to indulge your request for clarification as you and your pals ignore repeated requests to post YOUR GEAR and your experiences with them. You hide behind your rhetoric in a transparent attempt to weasel away from the obvious. The simple truth is that you have no experience and are subsequently ignorant. None of you have exhibited a "strong knowledge of audio". In fact even Audiogon has asked that you contribute elswhere in these forums. The truth is that you can't! Your inability to contribute any meaningful dialog across multi-topic discussions is a forgone conclusion. I stand by what I have written. Your "blah, blah, blah" speaks volumes. It is obvious that your inability to hear differences is solely due to the fact that you just don't listen. C'mon pony-boy, post your gear and tells us all about it. Grant all of us the same courtesy we have shown to you over and over again. You won't do it and we all know why. Inexperienced and ignorant. I trust this clears things up for you. -Jerie

Hey 7, I've told you twice this past winter. In that you have chosen to not listen, well I think your not worth the effort. You are the worst of the worst in my opinion, and I have no more time for your games Sir.