Reviews with all double blind testing?


In the July, 2005 issue of Stereophile, John Atkinson discusses his debate with Arnold Krueger, who Atkinson suggest fundamentally wants only double blind testing of all products in the name of science. Atkinson goes on to discuss his early advocacy of such methodology and his realization that the conclusion that all amps sound the same, as the result of such testing, proved incorrect in the long run. Atkinson’s double blind test involved listening to three amps, so it apparently was not the typical different or the same comparison advocated by those advocating blind testing.

I have been party to three blind testings and several “shootouts,” which were not blind tests and thus resulted in each component having advocates as everyone knew which was playing. None of these ever resulted in a consensus. Two of the three db tests were same or different comparisons. Neither of these resulted in a conclusion that people could consistently hear a difference. One was a comparison of about six preamps. Here there was a substantial consensus that the Bozak preamp surpassed more expensive preamps with many designers of those preamps involved in the listening. In both cases there were individuals that were at odds with the overall conclusion, and in no case were those involved a random sample. In all cases there were no more than 25 people involved.

I have never heard of an instance where “same versus different” methodology ever concluded that there was a difference, but apparently comparisons of multiple amps and preamps, etc. can result in one being generally preferred. I suspect, however, that those advocating db, mean only “same versus different” methodology. Do the advocates of db really expect that the outcome will always be that people can hear no difference? If so, is it the conclusion that underlies their advocacy rather than the supposedly scientific basis for db? Some advocates claim that were there a db test that found people capable of hearing a difference that they would no longer be critical, but is this sincere?

Atkinson puts it in terms of the double blind test advocates want to be right rather than happy, while their opponents would rather be happy than right.

Tests of statistical significance also get involved here as some people can hear a difference, but if they are insufficient in number to achieve statistical significance, then proponents say we must accept the null hypothesis that there is no audible difference. This is all invalid as the samples are never random samples and seldom, if ever, of a substantial size. Since the tests only apply to random samples and statistical significance is greatly enhanced with large samples, nothing in the typical db test works to yield the result that people can hear a difference. This would suggest that the conclusion and not the methodology or a commitment to “science” is the real purpose.

Without db testing, the advocates suggest those who hear a difference are deluding themselves, the placebo effect. But were we to use db but other than the same/different technique and people consistently choose the same component, would we not conclude that they are not delusional? This would test another hypothesis that some can hear better.

I am probably like most subjectivists, as I really do not care what the outcomes of db testing might be. I buy components that I can afford and that satisfy my ears as realistic. Certainly some products satisfy the ears of more people, and sometimes these are not the positively reviewed or heavily advertised products. Again it strikes me, at least, that this should not happen in the world that the objectivists see. They see the world as full of greedy charlatans who use advertising to sell expensive items which are no better than much cheaper ones.

Since my occupation is as a professor and scientist, some among the advocates of double blind might question my commitment to science. My experience with same/different double blind experiments suggest to me a flawed methodology. A double blind multiple component design, especially with a hypothesis that some people are better able to hear a difference, would be more pleasing to me, but even here, I do not think anyone would buy on the basis of such experiments.

To use Atkinson’s phrase, I am generally happy and don’t care if the objectivists think I am right. I suspect they have to have all of us say they are right before they can be happy. Well tough luck, guys. I cannot imagine anything more boring than consistent findings of no difference among wires and components, when I know that to be untrue. Oh, and I have ordered additional Intelligent Chips. My, I am a delusional fool!
tbg
data is the heart of science.

And this thread, now at over 170 posts, still doesn't contain a shred of reliable, replicable data demonstrating audible differences between components that can't be heard in standard DBTs.

There are many reasons to believe that as applied to audio gear, this methodology does not validly assess the hypothesis that some components sound better.

Name one. Check that. Name one that won't get you laughed out of the Psych Dept. faculty lounge.

You, sir, also have no evidence that is intersubjectively transmissible.

I don't need "evidence that is intersubjectively transmissible," because I'm not changing the subject. The subject is hearing, and what humans can and cannot hear. In order to argue that DBTs can't be used for differences in audio gear, you have to claim that human hearing works differently when listening to audio gear than it does when listening to anything else. That's about as pseudoscientific as it gets.
What is laughable in the Psych. Dept. is not authoritative. Data has to be presented to justify that DBT validly assesses sound differences among components. DBT lacks face validity as most can hear differences. You, sir, are the one guilty of scientific error no matter how much you protest that others are pseudoscietific.

But more fundementally, we are not engaged in science in picking wine, cars, clothing, houses, wives, or audio equipment, so Charlie is right. Put this to bed. Neither of us is convincing the other nor ever will.
TBG: This thread had been put to bed. It was dormant for two weeks. I'm not the one who revived it. And if it doesn't matter to you, why do you keep posting? Go buy your expensive cables, and just enjoy the pleasure they give you. As you said, what does it matter to you if scientists say your cables are indistinguishable from zipcord?
Henry: Go back and re-read the thread. I provided a link to a whole list of articles on DBTs, including tests of cables, amps, CD players, tweaks, etc. That's why I'm on solid ground in demanding that the opponents of DBTs do the same. As of yet, no one has come up with a single experiment anywhere disputing what those tests have shown. Not one.

Science isn't done by arguing about methodology in the abstract. It's done by developing a better methodology and producing more robust results with it. People like Rouvin wouldn't even know how to do that. And the people who do know how to do that aren't doing it, because they have better uses of their time than re-proving something that's been settled science for decades. If you think it isn't settled, then it's up to you to come up with some evidence that unsettles it.
Pabelson, I do wish it would die, but you continue to misrepresent what science is and who best represents it. There is no evidence anywhere, including with your sacred, DBTesting, that demonstrates given evidence that cables don't sound different. You are not the authority who could declare that science has proven something for decades. No finding is ever proven rather it is tentatively accepted unless further data or studies using different methodologies suggests an alternative hypothesis. Robustness also is not of much use except to suggest that replications have often been done.

It is just the case that I will not concede that scientists or anyone has shown my better sounding cables are indistinguishable from zip-cord. Any fool's testing would indicate that is untrue, even if only in sighted comparisons.