Do powercords make a difference in sound?

I first want to second the comments by Dave (Corazon) about the quality and value of many of the posts in this thread. While it is of course not expectable that a clear consensus will be reached, or that many minds will be changed by the debate, it seems clear that more than a few of the posts above are potentially of uncommonly high value, to both protagonists and readers, compared to those that typically appear in threads devoted to cables, and especially to power cords. If only by virtue of stimulating and broadening each person’s thinking.

A question for Doug: In your several references to the value of testing with complete sets of cables from the same manufacturer, are you referring to complete sets of just power cords, or to sets comprising power cords, speaker cables, line-level interconnects, and perhaps also phono cables. If the latter, then I not only find your arguments to be technically plausible, but even expectable. As I indicated in a post earlier in this thread, IMO extrinisic technical factors relating to cables which conduct analog signals can easily explain the existence of sonic signatures, that will be consistent and predictable across multiple components and systems, obviously not in degree, but in kind.

Some examples: Speaker cables having low inductance will, everything else being equal, provide increased high frequency extension, to a greater or lesser degree depending on the speaker’s impedance at high frequencies. “Lesser degree,” of course, will include some cases in which the effect is audibly insignificant, especially if the cable is short. Interconnect cables having low capacitance will do the same, to a greater or lesser degree depending on the output impedance of the component driving the cable. Unbalanced interconnect cables having low resistance in their shield or other return conductor will reduce ground loop-related hum and/or high frequency noise that may tend to occur with electronic components in some setups, thereby improving “background blackness” and resolution of low level detail.

On the other hand, if your reference to complete sets refers to just power cords, then while I think your comments support your case much more persuasively than most others that tend to be encountered in threads dealing with this subject matter, and although I obviously am not in a position to question or doubt your extensive relevant listening experience, and although I certainly do not believe that generally recognized technical principles can come close to explaining all of our sonic perceptions, the combination of lack of convincing technical rationale which is inherent in that position, and what I perceive to be the major degree of technical counter-intuitiveness of that position, still leaves me skeptical (concerning consistency and predictability across multiple systems, as well as price/performance correlation, not concerning the existence of differences!).

Also, it should be kept in mind that comparison of multiple complete sets of power cords in a given system, at a given location, does not provide data points relevant to proving consistency or predictability of the effects of those cords across differing ac line conditions, including differences in line voltages, line noise, and line distortion conditions that are likely to be encountered at differing locations.

08-20-11: Zaikesman
… though I did wonder why you omitted capacitance -- I'm sure you have a reason and will explain it

I didn’t mention capacitance because I would not expect its effects to be quantitatively significant in a power cord application. Even if they were, I would expect those effects to only occur at very high rf frequencies, causing them to be, once again, unpredictable, inconsistent, and system and setup dependent.

Best regards,
-- Al

Douglas - Thank you for your detailed response.

08-20-11: Douglas_schroeder
I have found the result of mixed cables swapping to be fairly unpredictable.

This has been my experience with power cords. It is largely for that reason that I've expressed skepticism about power cords having consistent audible characteristics.

As I understand your view, the consistent characteristics of power cords are particularly audible when you use sets of power cords from the same manufacturer. I use several identical power cords from the same manufacturer (Shunyata), and I can't say that I've noticed any consistent audible characteristics when adding each new cord to various components. I think of myself as a careful listener, but maybe I'm missing something.

In any case, like Al, I'm curious to know whether your observation that sets of cables exhibit consistent audible characteristics applies to power cords alone, or to power cords + interconnects + speaker cables.

08-21-11: Douglas_schroeder
Why are people in this discussion acting as though cables have infinitely flexible characteristics?

To clarify, I have not been advancing the view that power cables have infinitely flexible characteristics. I've been advancing the view that there is reason to doubt that power cables have consistent audible characteristics across diverse applications. That is a considerably more conservative view.

It also bears repeating that I'm NOT saying that all cables are equal, or that changing cables does not result in audible changes to a system's sound. I very much believe that cables change the way a system sounds, INCLUDING power cables. I am simply skeptical about the CONSISTENCY of those changes, when the cable in question is a power cable.

So, I come out more or less where Al does, in that I remain skeptical that power cables have consistent audible characteristics across diverse applications. But your comments have peaked my curiosity about experimenting a bit, so perhaps in the future I will discover something unexpected. In other words, I am skeptical, but not dogmatic.

I should also point out that I am in complete agreement with Al about the differences between power cables and analog interconnects/speaker cables. The skepticism I've expressed about power cables has no bearing on my views about other kinds of cables.

Bryon

Al, If I have you thinking that's a good thing; it means there's some meat on my comments. :)

When I use the terms 'sets' or 'suites" of cables I mean the whole group - PC/IC/SC/ and digital or phono, whichever applicable. If one uses only a power cord or two or one set of interconnects there is a possibility that the difference is so small it will be difficult to perceive. Persons with hearing loss will find these kinds of comparisons unsatisfying and be tempted to proclaim that there is nothing to the cable mania. This is especially so if the cables are built similarly. In such instances it may take the entire set and still the two brands might sound similar. I found in my comparisons that Acoustic Zen and Harmonic Technology (not the fiber optic cables, but the ones with metal conductors) sounded very close to each other. If one happened to compare them without being aware of their very similar construction/design they would be tempted to conclude erroneously that all cables sound the same.

However, when two rather differently designed and constructed sets are compared (i.e. Magnan Cables and Wireworld) the difference is usually easily heard. And when an entire set is swapped out there is a sea change of sound. If I were to swap out only the set of power cords the effect would be consistent but moderated. As I have said before, often the change of an entire set is so pronounced as to be similar to switching a box component, either source, pre, or amp.

My observations have been consistent when comparing sets of power cables only, or sets of Interconnects only. Logically they would have to, or else my assertion would not have merit. The sum of the effect of the set is nothing other than each cable exerting its influence upon the signal.

I am sure that what I am stating is counter-intuitive. However, it can be demonstrated quite persuasively in a rater simple fashion; by merely swapping sets of cables!

(oh, wow, my wife just brought me a plate with a cut fresh nectarine! YUMMY!)

I would suggest that your objections due to the differing AC line conditions, noise etc. are fairly inconsequential to the effect of the cables. I have had consistent results when I tested different cables at others' homes/systems. I also have heard consistent effects from cables when using all manner of power filtration/regeneration devices. Essentially power treatment or lack of it does not mask a cables' unique sonic properties.

Al, all that really remains is for you to actually test my theory. By the way, you used an illustration of a set of cables with low inductance providing greater high frequency extension depening on the speakers' impedance.
My observations are that such a cable will provide extended high frequencies no matter what speaker you use. The effect may be more noticeable/intense with a speaker with higher impedance, but certainly does not disappear when using a speaker of lower impedance.

It's quite simple; a cable brand (PC/IC/SC) which has rolled off the high end will do so with any speaker. One which extends the high end will do so with any speaker. And so on. Why? Because of the construction/design of the cables.

Hi Byron, I'm sorry, but this otherwise very nice discussion is just too far off into the weeds for me to want to compound it further by delving into the boring specifics of my own experiences with power cords. You sound like you've done just as much experimentation as I have, so if you reached somewhat different conclusions, that's good enough for me.

Regardless of whether or not the 'sound' associated with a cable is extrinsic, intrinsic, or, as I think most of us would probably accept, a mixture of both (a description that in my book would apply to all audio components), it seems to me that as long as one can hear the differences, no theoretical conclusions regarding this factor would be likely to ultimately affect one's choices. The debate probably arises (once again) because we are talking about cables in general, and power cords in particular, which still tend to be regarded by many as though they are somehow extraneous to the signal path.

About this:

I will challenge you on one thing though, and that is this comment...

A listener's impression of a power cord might change with seating position!

On the face of it, this statement strikes me as a contradiction of the position you are advancing. If a listener’s impression of a power cord changes from one listening position to another, then the power cord in question FAILS TO exhibit consistent audible characteristics. And if a power cord fails to exhibit consistent audible characteristics across MINOR changes like listening position, then how can we expect the very same power cord to exhibit consistent audible characteristics across MAJOR changes, like two different audio systems?

I would take exception with two of your premises there. First, I don't consider a change in seating position to be at all minor. To me that can certainly be more significant than almost any change in wires (or of almost any component of similar type and quality, for that matter). As for the second, I'll ask you your own question in modified form: If your impression of the sound of a speaker were to change with listening position (and of course it would), would you then conclude that the speaker "fails to exhibit consistent audible characteristics" and expect it not to necessarily display any similarities in another setting?

when i was shopping for the quad 63, i visited several dealers until i heard what i liked. so it is obvious that speakers will sound different for a variety of reasons.

if i change my listening position from kneeling to sitting to standing, my quads (esl) will sound different. those who own this speaker will attest to my experiences.

changing ones seating position , while changing the sound of a stereo system, saying that the line cord contributed to the change in sound seems counter intuitive.

could someone explain how this could happen.

is it reasonable to also say that the performance of an amp could change with listening position.

listening position affects how sound is dispersed to your ears. amplifiers, power cords, and other passive and active components , excluding a speaker, do not disperse or propagate sound waves.