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How do you judge your system's neutrality?


Here’s an answer I’ve been kicking around: Your system is becoming more neutral whenever you change a system element (component, cable, room treatment, etc.) and you get the following results:

(1) Individual pieces of music sound more unique.
(2) Your music collection sounds more diverse.

This theory occurred to me one day when I changed amps and noticed that the timbres of instruments were suddenly more distinct from one another. With the old amp, all instruments seemed to have a common harmonic element (the signature of the amp?!). With the new amp, individual instrument timbres sounded more unique and the range of instrument timbres sounded more diverse. I went on to notice that whole songs (and even whole albums) sounded more unique, and that my music collection, taken as a whole, sounded more diverse.

That led me to the following idea: If, after changing a system element, (1) individual pieces of music sound more unique, and (2) your music collection sounds more diverse, then your system is contributing less of its own signature to the music. And less signature means more neutral.

Thoughts?

P.S. This is only a way of judging the relative neutrality of a system. Judging the absolute neutrality of a system is a philosophical question for another day.

P.P.S. I don’t believe a system’s signature can be reduced to zero. But it doesn’t follow from that that differences in neutrality do not exist.

P.P.P.S. I’m not suggesting that neutrality is the most important goal in building an audio system, but in my experience, the changes that have resulted in greater neutrality (using the standard above) have also been the changes that resulted in more musical enjoyment.
bryoncunningham
cbw723
89 posts
 
Mrtennis writes:
...better is a subjective term...

Yes, it is. But it also isn't the subject of this thread. We're talking about neutrality.

...since there is no known reference in audio as the sound of a recording is completely unknown...

If you truly believe that, a few posts ago I proposed a hypothetical system (now referred to as the "Rube Goldberg machine") with which you could replace your current system. Given that the sound of a recording is "completely unknown," I assume you wouldn't notice the difference. You should, in fact, be satisfied with the sound of pounding on your recordings with a hammer because, arguably, that's what they really sound like.

thus, two audiophiles will disagree as to which audio system is closer to "neutrality".

Ignoring the non sequitur (see my first point), that point would only be valid if judging neutrality required an absolute reference. The OP proposed a means that required only a relative reference. In my experience, most audio reviews and personal judgments are made on the basis of the relative merits of components and systems, and don't require an absolute reference. But also in my experience is a lifetime of hearing things, human voices and musical instruments included, and I can tell live/real from recorded/reproduced, and I can tell a better reproduction from a poorer one. Can't you?
mrtennis
3,295 posts
 
hi cbw:

aural memory is very short. when judging the diffference between live and recordeded sound it is likely that one will be able to do so.

however, when comparing two recordings as to which is closer to a live sound, there will be disagreements among serious listeneres, as the number of variables governing such a judgment is large.

regarding neutrality, without a reference it is impossible to judge neutrality, accuracy or transparency.

when a recording is considered a reference for assessing the neutrality of a stereo system, the reference, either a live sound or recording is not knowable. hence it is best to use other terms than the aforementioned when trying to describe the sound of a stereo sytem.
muralman1
1,527 posts
 
Mr. Tennis, You aren't telling us your short memory prevents you from recognizing a live piano sound from one occasion to another. What would keep you from recognizing a music system that comes darn close, and know how far it varies?
kijanki's avatar
kijanki
4,432 posts
 
Vince - I have many piano recordings and each of them is different (some very different). Even same modern Steinway can sound very different (not talking about other brands, non cast iron plate pianos or uprights).

At each concert they also sound very different even if it is the same brand and model (instrument, concert hall, seating).

1. Which concert sound I supposed to remember?
2. Which recording to use for testing my system?
3. Everybody else has to agree with me to make it objective
(in good society everybody has exactly same opinions anyway)

If the goal is to tell piano from the hammer, as CB723 suggested, I think it can be possibly done.
mrtennis
3,295 posts
 
there is much subjectivity involved in making statements of a quantitative natture without a reference and relying exclusively upon memory.

when comparing say, 2 stereo systems, i suspect that there will be significant disagreements among serious listeners, unless a piano is available for comparison to a recording, as a basis for judgment. memory is too unreliable. i have some personal experienece as part of a master's program in psychology.

i do not trust aural memory.

there are ways to compare stereo systems which require elaborate designs, which are often impractical.

neutrality is such an abstract concept that it may be irrelevant as far as configuring a stereo system.
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