Is this why my analog rig isn't so hot?

Quite a fascinating conversation, George is certainly getting an earful. If I were in his position, I would certainly explore all reasonable no-cost or low-cost solutions before dumping my whole rig and starting over.

I'm not saying Ken is wrong about the Basis. I've never heard one as I mentioned, but I'm no fan of acrylic tables and I have no trouble believing that adding the suspension could impair clean, strong bass response. I've written about the theoretical danger of that several times. OTOH, I've never heard anyone call the Basis bearing "loose". I thought it had a rep for being one of the best. ??

Ken,
You didn't say why you'd avoid Clearaudio or Teres or make any model distinctions. Why the blanket slams? How about some specifics. What have you heard?

In the case of Clearaudio I suppose it might be the acrylic thing again, but what are your objections to Teres? With the exception of the one person already mentioned by Dan_ed, the response of every Teres hearer has been positive. In side-by-sides with Linn, Basis, Clearaudio and Nottingham a comparably priced Teres has usually come out on top. I don't know of anyone who's A/B'd a Linn vs. a Teres and preferred the Linn.

I can tell you for certain that the two Teres rigs I've heard have snapping dynamics, unlimited HF response and clarity, and clean bass to well below 20Hz. (Mine plays cleanly down to at least 16Hz, the lowest I can hear, and I suspect larger models would do even better.) As Dan_Ed said, proper support is vital, as are a suitably matched arm, cartridge and phono stage.

Which gets us back to George's problem...

Hi Doug,

>>Mine plays cleanly down to at least 16Hz, the lowest I can hear, and I suspect larger models would do even better.<<

I find this statement bewildering, I wonder how you could hear and then measure this low from vinyl, and clean bass to boot. Let's forget that analog never went that low (33-34hz max) and that most analog recordings are in the +40hz range, what I don't see is how your system could even approach 16hz. The 803 Nautilus at best is capable of 60hz-70hz of real bass and anything below isn't really natural bass. Yes, I'm sure you get some boom boom below that but even B&W doesn't claim 16hz.

I SERIOUSLY want to know how do you get clean bass down to 16hz!

>>I've never heard one as I mentioned, but I'm no fan of acrylic tables and I have no trouble believing that adding the suspension could impair clean, strong bass response.<<

I did mention upper bass hump of Basis suspended tables but it doesn't mean that all suspension is evil. Take the Goldmund Reference for example, its one of the finest tts ever made and its suspended. Regarding acrylic, most Teres tables are also fully or part acrylic, I'm not saying that I like them but you do! High quality acrylic isn't all bad if used correctly, the Reference's platter is a sandwich of metal and acrylic but it doesn't have any of the sonic defects associated with this material today. I agree with acrylic's coloration when it comes to many popular tables these days. Its probably because they use acrylic for cheapness of design and production rather than anything else.

>>I've never heard anyone call the Basis bearing "loose"<<

I said that because the bearings are loose. Please go and play with one of their tables and you'll see what I mean. People are buying up these things and never questioning their quality due to lack of experience or because of some review. There's no mystery here, pick one up in your hand and judge it like you would any other object costing thousands. Ignoring the brand propaganda could you pay that much money for anything else made this way?

Here I must concur with Ken that there are other brands with the same faults. What I disagree with is his blanket dismissal of high mass tables, again its all a question of design and implementation. Some of the best turntables ever made have all been high mass units.

Mama

George, I can't help but be curious - after receiving all of this information and helpful advise, what course of action do you think you will do to solve your problem. :-)

Dear friends ( all of you ): I have to return to by first two answers on the George subject: it has electronics problem and to get the Myabi cartridge, let me explain it:

George: go to the source, the phono cartridge, is where all began, we can't do anything for an improvement in the signal when that signal already pass through the cartridge the best we can do is not to degrade the signal, almost imposible, or better: degraded less. George if you want a better quality sound from your analog rig then you have to start with your phono cartridge, I already told you the Myabi because there will be a sinergy with your audio system and this is a plus, but there are other top options in phono cartridges. If you go with the Myabi you don't have to worry about the tonearm match ( you already have it ), this subject is extremly important and sometimes missunderstanded.
George you don't have to go around and around and ....., you have to go to the source: phono cartridge. After this you can ask: how I can help for degraded less that critical cartridge signal?
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Yourmama,
Very LF signals are easy to find on vinyl. Just break out your HFN test record and play the resonance measurement tracks. Paul and I both hear clean test signals down to 16Hz on our Teres 265/Tri-Planar VII/Shelter 901. On actual music the bass is tight down to low organ and string bass notes. Those aren't at 16 Hz of course, but 32 is not a problem - 'Zarathustra' and Bach's 'Pasacaglia' come to mind.

FWIW, before we added the Tri-Planar we had a modded OL Silver. Nothing was audible below 24Hz on the HFN record IIRC, and even 32Hz tones were both rolled off and muddy. The Tri-Planar seems bottomless, which I suppose it should be for the price.

I'm not sure why you think the N803's can't go below 60-70Hz, they're specified as flat to 33. Of course those 24/18/16 Hz test signals become progressively less loud, but they seem pretty clean to our ears. If someone else's N803's are boomy or absent from 33-70Hz then there's definitely something wrong with their system or their room.

In addition to our tonearm change here's another firsthand example: my old SAE amp, though it had nearly as many wpc as my c-j, couldn't take the N803's anywhere near as low without losing control. In fact one of my first A'gon threads was about finding for a cure for boomy bass. The amp was the answer.

Also, I've heard Cello's very nice system, which includes a Rel Storm. Obviously that goes lower and stronger than my N803's, but the difference is only in the 32Hz and below range. The N803's are just as full and tight as his system from there up.

Newbee,
I trust George gave up and bought concert tickets long ago! Or at least I hope so.