Question for users of bare wire ends speaker cable

Sean, interesting test which I haven't done. But I will say that you're assuming way too much here, namely (1) that gauge can't possibly make any difference since the currents are so small (not necessarily so), and (2) that gauge and surface area are the only things being varied (certainly not so). In an earlier post, I postulated that capacitance, inductance, and insulation dielectric properties are all potentially important, and it is a virtual certainty that they are all varying as well in your hypothetical test setup. If you were willing to take the time to measure them all and manage to somehow hold all of them constant throughout the test regardless of wire gauge, then we would be getting somewhere. But that still doesn't rule out gauge as a possible influence. To do that, you would have to start comparing different conductor geometries, while still holding all the above constant (extremely difficult), or compare solid to stranded cable (which introduces a whole new can of worms which would be virtually impossible to neutralize). I don't have the time or the equipment to run such a test, so I can't say. What I can say, based on good sound engineering judgment, is that skin effect is probably very near the bottom of the list when it comes to the relative importance of factors which influence the "sound" of a cable. The Goertz cables, as an obvious example, are designed that way not for skin effect considerations, but to tune the impedance and capacitance characteristics to the designer's preference.

I and others have done identical comparisons with cables which we designed that measure the same but have different size conductors. Yes you are right Sean, there is a DEFINITE difference in sound. Here is where you are incorrect though; You are assuming this sonic difference must be associated with "skin effect". I now ask you, why does this difference have to be attributed with "skin effect"? There are MANY other things that could be going on here other than skin effect when you change the amount of conductors and/or conductor size in a cable. The transmisity differential between conductors, the inherent motor effects of different conductors beside each other, and the ratio of conductor to insulator materials, are just three things (off the top of my head) that have changed, in your wire change scenario listed in the above thread.

"Skin effect" is, has been, and always will be a marketing driven explanation for those who don't fully understand the minutiae of electrical theory, regarding electrical wave propagation, within a particular wire design. We are talking about tons of high level math here! I have over 6 years of graduate study math under my belt, and I am still not qualified to understand the calculations of the effects of wire topology differences.

Many years ago everyone assumed that "negative feedback" was a definate bad sonic culprit, so that's what some the high end manufacturers used to "hook" the audiophiles. Many audiophiles bought into this "low feedback" design concept, not realizing that this was most likey not the reason that the particular amplifier sounded different another non low feedback design. Just because I ate carrots every day this year, and was diagnosed with cancer last week, does not mean that carrots cause cancer! Please watch out where you learn your audio theory from. If it's from the audio manufacturers, look out! It took me almost a decade to "unlearn' what I thought I knew about the sonic "cause and effects", and the associated electronic theory to substantiate these cause and effects.

Ehider, you are touching on MANY of the subjects that Jon is trying to cover over at AA in the cable forum. I do NOT attribute all of the differences amongst cables strictly to "skin effect". Then again, if what we were hearing was merely a matter of simplistic electrical equations taking place, we could "duplicate" the sonics of a cable by lumping electrical components together ( resistors, capacitors, inductors, etc...) and duplicating the end impedance via Thevenin's Theory. If you have ever tried doing such an "experiment", such AIN'T the case. There are obviously other things that we aren't measuring that obviously DO affect the interaction between components and various cables.

Outside of all of the "bickering" that goes on here, some of you might want to check out this post. It has TONS of references in it regarding wires and cables, etc... Sean
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http://www.AudioAsylum.com/audio/cables/messages/40899.html

Just for the record: I don't prescribe to the notion that a cables' sound can be characterized by electrical equations. You are very right that you CANNOT do an experiment with resistors, capacitors and inductors to mimic a cable. One major reason is because the electrical wave propagation characteristic through these passive devices are much different than through any sort of cable. Anybody on this forum that has taken 4 or more years of high level calculus, should be able to tell you that the math involved to understand electrical wave propagation is extremely complex. This is what I was referring to when I wrote the words "calculations".

BTW: Sean you may think there is "bickering" going on here, but I think people are trying to open your mind to new ideas and concepts. Every post should be treated as a measure of learning and only a personal attack only when people don't back up their comments, or make malicious, demeaning statements about you. I've read many of your posts, and you make some extremely good comments, helpful suggestions and provide a great overview on many topics. But please try to learn from others also. This is what I think myself, Karls, bomarc and Bishopwill have been trying to do with our comments regarding your statements. We are not "bickering", we are expanding on your ideas, hypothesizes and assumptions.

Anytime there is an "exchange of ideas", there is "bickering" taking place. Each party is "arguing" or "presenting" their side of the story. This is NOT to say that understanding or learning can't come out of a "heated discussion".

With that in mind, i do try to learn as much as possible. I try to better understand where various points of view are coming from so that i can more easily pick them apart : )

As such, i probably do come across as "confrontational" in some / many of the posts that i make. This probably limits the amount of input that specific threads would receive, so i probably need to shut up a LOT more often than i do. I'll keep this in mind. I know that you didn't say that, but i'm sure that it is true.

As to your comments about velocity of propagation and the waveshaping that takes place in various components, etc... i agree wholeheartedly. Those are the things that are measurable ( with the right equipment ), so i have a hard time understanding why it hasn't already been done. Sean
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