2. analog
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Is this the best analog has to offer?

As I have mentioned in these forums, I recently made a serious return to vinyl with a Michell Gyro, OL Silver arm, Shelter 501 cartridge and Sonic Frontiers SFP Signature phono stage and the purchase of every new jazz records from the 50's- 60's that I could still find around ( a few hundred)

I've been listening to this setup for a couple of months now with around 50 hours of burn -in on the components and while direct A/B comparisions of the same material on CD to LP lead me to the conclusion that LP is better, it is not as significant a difference as I had expected.

I'm wondering whether I still have some things to further adjust or whether there is a weak point in my system. I purchased the HIFI NEWS test record and have tweaked the cartridge adjustments as much as I think is humanly possible. The biggest complaint I have about the sound of the LP's is that they are rather "dry" "zippy" and "buzzy". Brass instruments sound more "plastic" than metal (Maybe this is the sound of the vinyl?) I know I'm not using the best audiophile terms to describe sound but it is how it sounds to me. This is not true on all records. Some are far beter than others.

On the other hand I can definitely say the LP's do have more detail and sound stage than the identical material on CD. The LP's are so much more detailed that I hear flaws in the master tapes that I never realized were there from the CD. I suspect that my disatisfactions with LP sound are really the inadequacies of recordings from this period that are masked by CD's and not flaws in the LP. The fact that some LP's are far better than others also suggests to me that the difference in original recording quality is more important final recording than medium but I'm not sure.

I would also comment that in my opinion a well recorded jazz CD made in 2003 sounds far better than an average LP recorded in the 50's or 60's. Of course, I suspect a well recorded LP from 2003 would sound the best of all but since hardly any exist it is a moot point.

Any suggestions on what to try would be appreciated!
128x128jyprez
dougdeacon
3,338 posts
 
Jyprez,

Our experience is very different from yours. On our system the best (classical) CD's, like JVC XRCD or Reference Recordings, while very good, cannot touch their LP counterparts. It's not even close, even though our analog rig has < 50 hours while the CDP has 500+. Something is wrong somewhere. If true this is good news of course, since it means you can fix it once you identify it.

"Dry, zippy, buzzy" sounds like some combination of:
- VTF set too low (this will also damage your vinyl)
- VTA set too high, as Amandarae suggested
- loading is too high, as Sean suggested

I'm no expert. Why not post your entire system so the real experts can get a better idea of what to suggest?
twl
3,251 posts
 
Well, the Shelter 501 is not "zippy or buzzy" so I don't think that is your problem, although you may want to check that the VTA is just a hair lower at the pivot end of the arm, and the loading is set at about 100 ohms. The OL arm is remarkably uncolored, so that shouldn't be a problem either. The Michell table is a good one, not the very best, but certainly capable. You should be getting good results, and it seems that you are, considering that you feel it is better than CD sound in general. I think you may be able to tweak it in better than you have it now.

Also, regarding Pbb's statement, it is naturally an incremental difference and you can only expect differences in certain areas, and these will vary based on the quality of the recording, as you noticed.

Give it some time, and see what you think in the long run.
s23chang
620 posts
 
I've been through 8 different phono stages in my two systems and 3 of them with same TT setup in my reference system. In deed they sound quite different. The amplification stage is quite important. From what I was told the SFP is not very transparent and crisp and plus a bit grain. The cable also make some noticeable difference.
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pbowne
75 posts
 
All of the previous comments are great!

My experience is that anytime I or any friends have done an A/B comparison between an LP and CD, the LP is superior. The vinyl always shows better soundstaging, more natural sound, much more detail and better highs (always check the cymbals!).

I have to say I myself have been surprised that there are not some instances where the CD outshines the LP, as not all LP's are good quality. Also this has been done with varying quality TT's from $700-28000 and CDP's from $150-9000.

With all the limitations of vinyl (and as so many CD lovers like to point out, there are many), I am always amazed that LP's sound as alive and dynamic as they do.
herman
2,261 posts
 
Try some Galaxy jazz recordings from the late 70's/early 80's (Johnny Griffin, Art Pepper, Hank Jones). Johnny Griffin's "Return of the Griffin" sounds like the band is in the room and they are wailing. If these sound dry and zippy then there is definitely an equipment or setup issue. The way you describe the sound of your system is nowhere near the full bodied sound I associate with vinyl.

Tubes in the phono stage OK? Some tubes do sound zippy.
Do you have a decent gauge to set tracking force?

Keep at it. Once you finally get it resolved you will be very happy.
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