2. analog
  3. 1060660051

Why can't I hear 20 years of phono 'progress'??

How can this be??! A well-regarded 1980 Ortofon VMS20e MkII $150 mm cartridge in an ambivalently-regarded 1980 Thorens TD115 $430 turntable sounds identical to a highly-regarded 2002 Grado The Reference (high-output) $1200 cartridge in an equally-highly-regarded 2002 modded Rega Planar 25 $1275 turntable. Before you dismiss me as another naïve wacko, please read a little further.

I’ve been building a whole new system over the past year and a half, made critical auditions of dozens of components, and been quite satisfied with my 45yo ears and results. You can click on my system below for an OTT description, but with everything else in place, I’m listening to the carts through a fine BelCanto Phono1 -> AQ Emerald -> retubed Sonic Frontiers Line1 -> AQ Viper -> Steve McCormack-upgraded DNA0.5 -> AQ Bedrock -> Thiel 2.3 -> great room acoustics, or Headroom Max -> Stefan AudioArt Equinox -> Sennheiser HD600.

I’ve had the Rega-Grado paired for over two months, both items bought separately from A’gon. Cart has several hundred hours, P25 I installed the Expressimo counterweight, donut mat, snugged tonearm nut to plinth and set the speed to 33-1/3 with tape on the subplatter. FWIW, the Thorens has an upgraded mat and cables, record clamp and 10lbs of inert clay in the base, and new belts and styli over the years. The cartridges set up and align perfectly in both units, confirmed with test records. I know the 115/vms20 to be very synergistic, and, hum aside, had always thought the rb600/grado worked well together.

We’ve been just loving the sound of the Rega-Grado for those two months, so before I put the Thorens into storage I just wanted to remind myself what I had been listening to for 23 years.

That was a couple weeks and way too many hours of clinical listening ago. Despite swapping equipment stands, matching levels, and playing every type and quality of vinyl, I’ve never heard two pieces of equipment sound so identical, this after choosing between DACs, CD transports, digital and analog interconnects, vacuum tubes, headphone amps, preamps, etc.

Both the overall sit-back-and-relax musicality and every audiophile definition from general frequency balance and PRaT to bass articulation and depth retrieval are the same(!) The most I can say now is that on the best recordings with the most focused and careful listening, the P25 has more inner detail on vocals, more articulation on complex cymbal brushwork, and smoother massed strings. But most of the time I had to confirm this (barely) with headphones, it was below the resolution of the Thiels that have unraveled every other upstream difference before!

I’m sure a true Golden Ears with a $100K system could be more conclusive. The Thorens' semi-auto operation, sprung dustcover, detachable tonearm wands, replaceable styli, front-panel cueing, electronic speed control are all huge real-world advantages over the Rega-Grado hum, $800 retip and fully-manual operation. So what gives?? Have I done something blatantly wrong with the Rega? How can a 23yo $580 rig equal 5yo designs adding up to $2600? I always knew my 115/vms20 combo sounded good, but never expected this – I’d sell the P25/reference at a loss but for nobody believing that my archaic TT is even in the same sonic league! Plus the newer record player gives more 'street cred' to the whole system(?) All enlightened suggestions, useful comments and curious questions welcome. I've come to trust many of you and your inputs over the months, so don't be shy! No, I won’t be selling my Thorens at bluebook :-)
sdecker
sean
6,231 posts
 
I don't doubt your experience in the least. As far as Rega vinyl related products go, in my eyes / ears, they are way over-rated. I don't doubt that the Thorens can keep up with the "new & improved" Rega.

As far as the basic Ortofon vs Grado "sound" goes, i think that the Ortofon's tend to sound more open and spacious with the Grado's coming across as generally warmer with increased PRAT. Which one you like better may have to do with the rest of your system and tonal balance. One thing that you might notice is that the Grado will probably be a little more forgiving of surface noise.

I would only add that playing with cartridge loading ( taking into account the electrical characteristics of the tonearm cabling / interconnects used ) may help to spread out the differences to a more noticeable extent. As to whether the differences are really there may remain to be seen, but you'll only know if you experiment.

I'm not familiar with either the quality or versatility of the Bel Canto phono stage, but that may also be part of what you are dealing with. Hopefully, someone that is familiar with the Bel Canto and other phono stages can help you out in this area. Sean
>
Post removed 
marakanetz's avatar
marakanetz
5,473 posts
 
Analogue playback now became rather precious than affordable.
You should now multiply by 10 everything prouced 20 years ago in that direction.
rockvirgo
587 posts
 
Before jumping to any hasty conclusions, make sure you minutely set the precise interface angle twixt the frammistat and the jammostan :^)

Actually, as the satisfied owner/operator of a 30-plus year old Dual 1219, your comparative results are music to my ears. Btw, I never met an Ortofon I didn't like.
twl
3,251 posts
 
A Thorens is a pretty good table, and has alot going for it. It will sound a little different than the Rega 25, but probably near the same level. So you have 2 tables that really aren't all that far apart. I think the Rega has a better arm. What you probably are hearing most, is the difference between the cartridges.

Also remember that 20 years ago, the money was worth alot more than it is today, and a $580 rig would cost alot more than that today. Add in the fact that vinyl was still the top media then, and alot of turntables were being sold, so you got more for your money, due to the high volume of production keeping the costs down for the manufacturer. Since the CD took over, turntables are a low production item now, and makers can't enjoy the economies of scale in production, and that translates to higher price on the individual item because of lower sales volume. I'd say a $580 rig 20 years ago might cost about $2k right now, if you consider all the factors involved. Even if you look at car prices, a new car in 1980 might have cost $10k, and now cars are around $30k. And cars haven't suffered from a reduced market share.

So, to answer your questions, there may not be an awful lot of difference between those rigs, and that may be why you don't hear much difference.

Others' opinions may vary, but I think that has alot to do with your situation. I don't think that the Rega was sufficiently enough of an upgrade over the Thorens.
More to discover