2. analog
  3. 1060660051

Why can't I hear 20 years of phono 'progress'??

How can this be??! A well-regarded 1980 Ortofon VMS20e MkII $150 mm cartridge in an ambivalently-regarded 1980 Thorens TD115 $430 turntable sounds identical to a highly-regarded 2002 Grado The Reference (high-output) $1200 cartridge in an equally-highly-regarded 2002 modded Rega Planar 25 $1275 turntable. Before you dismiss me as another naïve wacko, please read a little further.

I’ve been building a whole new system over the past year and a half, made critical auditions of dozens of components, and been quite satisfied with my 45yo ears and results. You can click on my system below for an OTT description, but with everything else in place, I’m listening to the carts through a fine BelCanto Phono1 -> AQ Emerald -> retubed Sonic Frontiers Line1 -> AQ Viper -> Steve McCormack-upgraded DNA0.5 -> AQ Bedrock -> Thiel 2.3 -> great room acoustics, or Headroom Max -> Stefan AudioArt Equinox -> Sennheiser HD600.

I’ve had the Rega-Grado paired for over two months, both items bought separately from A’gon. Cart has several hundred hours, P25 I installed the Expressimo counterweight, donut mat, snugged tonearm nut to plinth and set the speed to 33-1/3 with tape on the subplatter. FWIW, the Thorens has an upgraded mat and cables, record clamp and 10lbs of inert clay in the base, and new belts and styli over the years. The cartridges set up and align perfectly in both units, confirmed with test records. I know the 115/vms20 to be very synergistic, and, hum aside, had always thought the rb600/grado worked well together.

We’ve been just loving the sound of the Rega-Grado for those two months, so before I put the Thorens into storage I just wanted to remind myself what I had been listening to for 23 years.

That was a couple weeks and way too many hours of clinical listening ago. Despite swapping equipment stands, matching levels, and playing every type and quality of vinyl, I’ve never heard two pieces of equipment sound so identical, this after choosing between DACs, CD transports, digital and analog interconnects, vacuum tubes, headphone amps, preamps, etc.

Both the overall sit-back-and-relax musicality and every audiophile definition from general frequency balance and PRaT to bass articulation and depth retrieval are the same(!) The most I can say now is that on the best recordings with the most focused and careful listening, the P25 has more inner detail on vocals, more articulation on complex cymbal brushwork, and smoother massed strings. But most of the time I had to confirm this (barely) with headphones, it was below the resolution of the Thiels that have unraveled every other upstream difference before!

I’m sure a true Golden Ears with a $100K system could be more conclusive. The Thorens' semi-auto operation, sprung dustcover, detachable tonearm wands, replaceable styli, front-panel cueing, electronic speed control are all huge real-world advantages over the Rega-Grado hum, $800 retip and fully-manual operation. So what gives?? Have I done something blatantly wrong with the Rega? How can a 23yo $580 rig equal 5yo designs adding up to $2600? I always knew my 115/vms20 combo sounded good, but never expected this – I’d sell the P25/reference at a loss but for nobody believing that my archaic TT is even in the same sonic league! Plus the newer record player gives more 'street cred' to the whole system(?) All enlightened suggestions, useful comments and curious questions welcome. I've come to trust many of you and your inputs over the months, so don't be shy! No, I won’t be selling my Thorens at bluebook :-)
sdecker
lugnut
1,190 posts
 
Eldartford,

If you need to pause and clean your stylus half way through a record then you need to alter your vinyl hygene habits. Also, even without a subwoofer the rumble you refer to would be visible as any speaker/amplifier would attempt to recreate it unless there is a rumble filter. That's not my experience, ever. Surface noise is real but enhanced by many cartridges. I bailed from the Shure V15 in the 70's because of this very issue. After auditioning several MC cartrdiges I found surface noise on generic recordings to nearly disappear. With the best audiophile pressings the noise was, in practical terms, non-existant.

I will never insult anyone's equipment. We've got what we've got and all that really counts is the enjoyment of music. I do take issue with your statement though that "none of these problems are the fault of my record player, and could not be corrected by newer and more expensive equipment". There are vintage turntables that dealt with these and other issues long ago. One of the vintage tables, and the one I have owned since the 70's, is the Linn LP12 and is still sold to this day.

I need to avoid the accusation that I'm just some type of analog camando living to insult digital playback. Such is not the case. When CD's came out in the early 80's the sound was so terrible a side by side comparison was not even needed. What was emphasized by the sales people was the black background and the "forever" lie. Also, buyers were led to believe that the medium was immune to scratches. I bought my first CDP in 1994 when I felt it was listenable and also so that my wife could use the system without fear. I upgraded in 2002 and was very happy with my personal CD playback but realized I rarely used the thing. I no longer have a CDP and it's not because I don't think they are good. Having listened to arguably the best digital playback avialable (Capitole, Merlins, Berning) I still believe my LP12 inserted in this system (we did it) destroyed the digital playback. And, for what it's worth, the Capitole is history and a new 300 series Teres is in its place. This isn't my system either but one of an acquaintence that had no way of auditioning any real turntables in this audio wasteland of Idaho.

It's doubtful I would embrace vinyl if I were a budding audiophile right now. Acquiring my vinyl library took me a lifetime living through every release. That task would be overwhelming now.

I hope you don't take offense with my positions. I didn't mean it in any way other than an accurate historical account of my life in this hobby. I remain open minded and hopeful about a new type of software that will make these discussions irrelevant.
eldartford
4,262 posts
 
Lugnut....no offense taken.

I clean records from time to time, and use the brush before each play, but I can't see going to extremes. I live in the real world where there is dust in the air, and it gets attracted to vinyl. Perhaps I am overly sensitive to the degradation that even a tiny ball of fuzz can cause, and perhaps I am too quick to look for fuzz when there might be some other problem (like a well worn LP).

As you say, surface noise may vary with different pickups. Apart from the higher tracking force of MC which probably helps with debris in the groove, frequency response must be a factor. A peak in the surface noise range would accentuate it, while a dip would surpress it. The Shure V15 measures flat by all accounts.

Perhaps I am lucky, but I have never had a CD that developed a play problem because of scratches. Some CD players are more tolerant than others. (I have gotten new discs that had defects, sometimes invisible, that aborted playback).

The low frequency rumble that I mention exists on most records, and can be seen as cone motion even if you can't hear it. For some records it pretty much goes away between cuts, suggesting that it is in the recorded groove. One known source (well below 20 HZ) is air conditioning in the recording studio, but that leaves open the question of why it doesn't show up just as much on CD's. Perhaps digital recordings effectively remove anything below 20 HZ, although they certainly do remain flat to 20 HZ.
lugnut
1,190 posts
 
Eldartford,

Perhaps your low frequency cone excursion is a result of feedback. The good thing is that we can enjoy it all. Hell, I even like the MP3's on my puter at times.
eldartford
4,262 posts
 
Lugnut...Now you remind me, feedback is another problem with LPs (that doesn't affect CDs) and which hasn't changed in 20 years. My feedback (yes I admit to some) is mostly what comes through the air and excites the record like a drum skin. I have never found an effective record clamp which might help in this area. The turntable is heavy and has good vibration isolating feet, and is mounted in a very solidly built alcove. I can tap quite hard on the shelf (cork surface) and not get anything significant through the speakers.

Just to put things in perspective, my rumble problem really isn't worse than other systems, it's just that it is apparent after playing CD's where the LF is completely clean. Perhaps I run the volume louder than most folks.

In my first post I tried to identify weaknesses of the LP media that are inherent in the media, and therefore not likely to have changed in the last 20 years, per the original question.

Again, I bring up those DBX records, which really could have produced a dramatic improvement. Am I the only guy who had a DBX setup? Am I the only guy who even remembers them?

zaikesman
3,017 posts
 
Eldartford, a couple of thoughts:

1) The shape of the stylus has a big influence upon the perceived level of surface noise, and the more radical 'line-contact' geometries are not generally found in mid-priced carts, or most MM carts generally. But the actual type of motor system used, or its frequency response, may not always be a determining factor.

2) The LF rumble you have could be the result of a cart/arm system resonance that is undesirably high in frequency/amplitude, and is excited by certain recordings more than others, but not as much (or at all) by between-track silent grooves. This would be a different scenario than whatever rumble is contributed by the TT motor or is pressed into records, and could help account for your results. Another possibility could be that your TT is not sufficiently isolated from your speakers and subs as far as mechanically-transmitted feedback goes, and that the variations in 'rumble' you see are mostly being caused by differences in your preferred volume settings with different recordings (with records that are pressed 'hotter' being less problematic).
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