Why can't I hear 20 years of phono 'progress'??


How can this be??! A well-regarded 1980 Ortofon VMS20e MkII $150 mm cartridge in an ambivalently-regarded 1980 Thorens TD115 $430 turntable sounds identical to a highly-regarded 2002 Grado The Reference (high-output) $1200 cartridge in an equally-highly-regarded 2002 modded Rega Planar 25 $1275 turntable. Before you dismiss me as another naïve wacko, please read a little further.

I’ve been building a whole new system over the past year and a half, made critical auditions of dozens of components, and been quite satisfied with my 45yo ears and results. You can click on my system below for an OTT description, but with everything else in place, I’m listening to the carts through a fine BelCanto Phono1 -> AQ Emerald -> retubed Sonic Frontiers Line1 -> AQ Viper -> Steve McCormack-upgraded DNA0.5 -> AQ Bedrock -> Thiel 2.3 -> great room acoustics, or Headroom Max -> Stefan AudioArt Equinox -> Sennheiser HD600.

I’ve had the Rega-Grado paired for over two months, both items bought separately from A’gon. Cart has several hundred hours, P25 I installed the Expressimo counterweight, donut mat, snugged tonearm nut to plinth and set the speed to 33-1/3 with tape on the subplatter. FWIW, the Thorens has an upgraded mat and cables, record clamp and 10lbs of inert clay in the base, and new belts and styli over the years. The cartridges set up and align perfectly in both units, confirmed with test records. I know the 115/vms20 to be very synergistic, and, hum aside, had always thought the rb600/grado worked well together.

We’ve been just loving the sound of the Rega-Grado for those two months, so before I put the Thorens into storage I just wanted to remind myself what I had been listening to for 23 years.

That was a couple weeks and way too many hours of clinical listening ago. Despite swapping equipment stands, matching levels, and playing every type and quality of vinyl, I’ve never heard two pieces of equipment sound so identical, this after choosing between DACs, CD transports, digital and analog interconnects, vacuum tubes, headphone amps, preamps, etc.

Both the overall sit-back-and-relax musicality and every audiophile definition from general frequency balance and PRaT to bass articulation and depth retrieval are the same(!) The most I can say now is that on the best recordings with the most focused and careful listening, the P25 has more inner detail on vocals, more articulation on complex cymbal brushwork, and smoother massed strings. But most of the time I had to confirm this (barely) with headphones, it was below the resolution of the Thiels that have unraveled every other upstream difference before!

I’m sure a true Golden Ears with a $100K system could be more conclusive. The Thorens' semi-auto operation, sprung dustcover, detachable tonearm wands, replaceable styli, front-panel cueing, electronic speed control are all huge real-world advantages over the Rega-Grado hum, $800 retip and fully-manual operation. So what gives?? Have I done something blatantly wrong with the Rega? How can a 23yo $580 rig equal 5yo designs adding up to $2600? I always knew my 115/vms20 combo sounded good, but never expected this – I’d sell the P25/reference at a loss but for nobody believing that my archaic TT is even in the same sonic league! Plus the newer record player gives more 'street cred' to the whole system(?) All enlightened suggestions, useful comments and curious questions welcome. I've come to trust many of you and your inputs over the months, so don't be shy! No, I won’t be selling my Thorens at bluebook :-)
sdecker
El Dee, you're right about the stylus shape of the V15VxMR (my calculations translate the Shure website data [given in mils] to be a mere 3.8 microns X a healthy 76 microns - which, while not the largest major-radius design going, definitely qualifies it as a fine-line-contact design, and considerably more so than my own twice-the-price 6 X 40 micron BenzMicro Glider MC) - I should have looked this up before spouting. However, if no one mentioned it already above, many folks (OK, many audiophiles anyway) through the years have felt the V's built-in brush can exacerbate the pick-up of surface noise from otherwise basically clean records, so if you haven't done it previously, you may want to experiment by listening with the brush locked in the raised position (bear in mind that a VTF adjustment is necessitated by this change, which I believe is specified in the manual).
Zman...
I seem to remember that it was Shure who introduced the idea of the bi-radial (eliptical), and (even better) fine line stylus. MR means "micro ridge").
I will give a listen or two with the brush raised. I suppose that the brush could generate noise as it sweeps over the record, but I suspect that the crud that it keeps away from the stylus is more significant. This may depend on how clean the record is to begin with. Also, I think that the brush is supposed to contribute desirable damping. The VTF effect of the brush is 1/2 gram. By the way, the stylus in use is a new one-less than 5 hr use on it so far.

My arm/pickup (linear tracking) will track well (no breakup on test record) with vtf as low as 1/2 gram (the minimum setting) but I generally use 1.5 to 2.0 grams, which includes 1/2 for the brush. Shure suggests 1.5 grams.
Eldartford,

FWIW (probably not much) my old ADC XLM MkII with an elliptical stylus was very sensitive to dust bunnies. The slightest accumulation was audible.

My new cartridge (Shelter 901) seems virtually immune. Yesterday I happened to glance at the stylus near the end of a side. I was shocked to see a small mountain of junk piled on top of the cantilever, with more accumulating visibly at every rotation. (Back off you hygiene fanatics! We're just getting back into vinyl and a RCM is next on the list). Even knowing that it was there, I could not hear any effects from all that crud.

The new TT and arm may also be helping, but that Shelter stylus just tossed junk out of the way and played cleanly the whole time. At the end of the side there were visible piles of stuff all over the last dozen or two grooves, yet I never heard them. I was thoroughly astonished.
Doug,

That's a pretty magical analog rig you've got. Seriously. Regarding hygene....DIY is too cheap not to do. Man, I hate cleaning records!!! At least once they are clean it's just a swipe with a carbon brush.
Lugnut,

Thanks for the nice words. Magic it truly is, we are still swooning. Don't get me started or you'll have to endure another bout of joyous babbling. There's certainly been progress in MY phono in the last 20 years! :)

The Teres is shockingly quieter than our old TT, but I know we need to clean. Sigh, I'll go bid on a Groovmaster at ebay. Why can't he just sell the damn things. BentAudio's website has a preliminary announcement about an ultrasonic RCM. No details yet but the concept seems better than brushes and chemicals. Hope they execute it well.

Last night I played a virgin copy of Classic Records' reissue of Stravinsky/'Song of the Nightingale'/Reiner/CSO. There was a silk-thin layer of sonic scum, mold release agents I suppose, over some of the most glorious sonics you ever heard. Arthur Salvatore was right to put this on his list of "demi-gods". No point in damaging it or our stylus, so I won't play it again without cleaning. Once we have a machine, we won't play anything before an initial cleaning of course.

Thanks for the nudge.