insuring vinyl

I kind of went off (half cocked) in one direction after reading the original post.

AM_Dial: Keep in mind every policy is different, and if you haven't already, make sure you are interpreting your policy right, and /or got good advice on the fact that your particular policy will not cover your collection. Make sure you're not reading the exclusion for media that's not in your home-- an example follows:

PROPERTY NOT COVERED. We do not cover:
1. Articles separately described and specifically insured in this or other insurance;
2. Animals, birds or fish;
3. Motor vehicles or all other motorized land conveyances. This includes:
a. Their equipment and accessories; or
b. Electronic apparatus that is designed to be operated solely by use of the power from the electri-cal system of motor vehicles or all other motorized land conveyances. Electronic apparatus in-cludes:
1) Accessories or antennas; or
2) Tapes, wires, records, *discs* or other media;
for use with any electronic apparatus.



The exclusion of property described in 3.a. and 3.b. above applies only while the property is in or upon the vehicle or conveyance.

If you don't read that all carefully, you could think this applies in your home. In reality it's only if you have the media in your car.

If AM-Dial's renter's insurance policy excludes or limits vinyl /media at his house (limits is more likely), he might be able to get a policy from another company that won't (some renter's policies are better than others) but he's still going to have to look at policy provisions such as:

3. "Replacement cost" coverage shall not apply to property:
a. which by its inherent nature cannot be replaced.
b. not maintained in good or workable condition.
c. which at the time of loss is either obsolete or useless to the insured.

So, taking AM-Dial's example, with lots of rare vinyl that is not replaceable, the insurance company would only owe the actual cash value (replacement cost minus depreciation)** of the item. Now, with no appraisal, and no stated value on the collection on which you've been paying premiums, the adjuster is going to have a difficult time understanding why he/ she should be paying you $75 for an obsolete (to their way of thinking) piece of software. I'm sure they'd pay you the $15 for a new CD of your choosing. BUT, unless you've got either an appraisal or a stated value on that collection, you will have to fight on every single piece of irreplaceable vinyl you've got to receive decent value for it. That would be your duty in the event of a loss, not the insurance company's, BTW. Absent any documentation from you that the mint vinyl pressing of "We're a garage band" by "insert name of unknown local indie artist here" is really worth $75, you'd be in for a big fight. If these albums are from pressings as small as you say, where exactly would you locate one for sale that you could compare with to determine market value? How long would that take for your whole collection?

Even if your collection runs to mint pressings of more popular LPs, do you want to have to prove the value of each of those albums after the fire to get the $$ you deserve? Sure, you could find one for sale on Audiogon, watch what it sells for, print the page, repeat 1500 times-- but wouldn't you rather have a pre-negotiated value based on your own leisurely appraisal of your collection? Just a thought.

As always, you'll need to balance the expense of the insurance product with the benefit to you. Hopefully someone jumps in here with a good company for you to buy renter's insurance from.

**This problem is further compounded by most states' legal definition of actual cash value = replacement cost (in free market conditions) less depreciation. Read that replacement cost limitation again-- it says that if the item, by its inherent nature can't be replaced, we'll use the (non-existent?) replacement value less the (determined how?) depreciation to calculate its value. It's a catch-22. Add to that the issue of pre-loss condition-- after the fire how will the adjuster know if you had a pile of musty rummage sale garbage or truly mint LPs? Should the adjuster be expected to know that one album is worthless even in mint condition, while another is priceless in any playable condition? Assuming they don't, are they just going to take your word for it?

If I had a big collection of valuable vinyl on any full replacement cost homeowner's policy I've seen in WA, OR, or ID I would seriously consider separate insurance on that valuable collection. That's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

Thanks, everyone, for all the excellent advice so far. I did spend the evening perusing my renter's policy, and Pmkalby is correct--there is no mention of any sort of limit or lack of coverage to sound recordings except in the exclusion cited about recordings on a motor vehicle. So perhaps the agent I spoke to has incorrect info.

It's heartening to hear that some others have had decent luck getting agents to increase limits. I think I'll visit the local Met agent tomorrow (my wife and I qualify for group rate insurance through her employer, so we haven't really dealt with anyone in person). If that doesn't work perhaps I'll switch the policy to State Farm! USAA doesn't look like an option for the reasons Lugnut cited.

I think Pmkalby's second post brings up an interesting (and frightening) point about what happens in the event a claim is necessary--how to prove value, condition, etc. I actually have catalogued every single record in my collection (per the advice of a previous insurance agent), but I agree that condition and value are difficult if not impossible to document, and anyway as we all know used vinyl is a volatile market in a lot of ways--basically it's worth what someone is or isn't willing to pay for it. And certainly we've all bought valuable records for next to nothing because the seller didn't know the value.

I once sold some of my records to a guy who'd lost all of his in a house fire. He was reassembling his collection, bit by bit, with the insurance settlement money. This is the sort of thing that keeps me up at night.

Joshua

Our 12,000 plus record collection is covered by our Home Owners insurance. 5 years ago we had a ice cube maker water valve that frooze in the open condition and flooded a section of our basement. The insurance appraiser viewed the damage which included about a 12 inch wide stack of 1950's to 60's jazz. The appraiser saw that I was a serious collector, had several jazz price books around and asked me what the records were worth. I gave an honest appraisal and the check was sent to us for the total damage along with a detail for each loss within a few days. We still have the same insurance conmpany and our rates have not increased more than 2% since.

Just my experience,
Brian

AM_dial: Glad you found out you got bad advice. You hopefully also learned a valuable lesson: agents don't always know about claims. It's always amazed me that the same agent that would laugh his rear off if I tried to sell insurance, thinks nothing of trying to advise people regarding claims...

BrianW- glad you had a good experience- that is the way claims are supposed to work. Just keep in mind that if you change one thing in that experience, it could have been very frustrating for you.

Possible change #1: Grumpy, inept, or just plain burnt out adjuster. There are 2 of these for every competent, courteous and professional one at some companies.

Possible change #2: Instead of a little water leak, you come home from work to find a smoking hole in the ground where your house once was. Now demonstrate the quality of your collection.

Possible change #3: Insurance company is struggling financially. Stock prices are down. They're trying to pretty up the balance sheets for a possible purchase by another company. New claims manager comes in and starts hammering staff adjusters to reduce loss ratios. Suddenly people aren't so willing to see your side of things.

Just food for thought.

Someone mentioned taking lots of pictures, and that is excellent advice. Take a ton of digital pics of your gear, your room, your software (take LPs out of the sleeves to show condition)-- put that CD-ROM in a safe deposit box, at your mom's house, or in your desk drawer at the office. At least then you'll only have to worry about replaceability, not proving you had the stuff, or its condition.

Sorry for being long winded.

I just checked my homeowner's policy with State Farm (I'm in Virginia if it matters). It does cover both my electronics and the collections. I regularly file a CD of photos with my insurance agent, and perhaps I will take a few of the important items in the collection. I file the CD regularly becuase I'm a little spooked by recent discourse in the papers about CDRs having less than archival duration. Fortunately they're now dirt cheap and sending one to my sister 100 miles away and one to my insurance agent is not an interesting expense. (My tax returns, quicken backups, and some other stuff go up there too.)