Upsampling the way to go? ?


As if we didn't have enough to decide with the format wars, the latest issue of Stereophile implies upsampling is the magic to make cds as good as sacd. ARC however, disagrees. Has anyone actually listened to the ARC CD3 vs the MF NU Vista 3D,Cary, EMC 1,or other comparably priced players with upsampling?
tonyp54
The Theta III would not be the one I would use as a comparison as to upsampling and non upsampling devices. I have always found them to have great bass and dynamics but not much in the musicality dept. We have compared MANY upsamplers to the Audio Note DAC's and it has always been no contest. We have done many shootouts here with customers and it doesn't take but 5 minutes to know that at this point anyway, upsampling is a great marketing ploy. We have extended the offer numerous times to allow any Audiogon member in the Bay Area CA to bring their upsamplers over and compare to non. No one ever takes us up on it. It seems people like to throw technical mumbo jumbo around as to benefits of one over the other. Or they compare a new upsampler to some antiquated DAC and say wow what a difference. Bring it on:)
I will state the rules again: Be open minded. I will be. Lets have fun and you can report back here since my views will be taken with a grain of salt as a dealer. Who by the way has sold and heard many a DAC.
After reading your test I applaud your initiative. And even though I didn't think the Theta would slay the upsampler I was proven wrong on that assertion. Good job and I agree completely with your results. Good job!
I actually had the opportunity to listen to the Musical Fidelity Nu Vista cd w/the intergrated MF,(sorry can't recall the model #,along with the AR CD3 W/LS16 ARC PRE&100.2 ARC AMP.Both systems were running w/ the Vandersteen 3a Sig's and Volcano AQ speaker cable.First off my initial impresssion was that the MF system was really warm and a bit too bloomy in the bass.In fact it was so bloomy I felt as if I were in a fog .Details in the mid's and highs were really masked ,needless to say I didn't care for the sound.When the dealer switched over to the ARC setup the detail became more pronounced and the bass had much more dynamics and overall punch.To my ears it sounded much better and less fatiguing .Now given the right equipment I'm sure you could get a better result w/the MF setup,I think w/ARC, Vandersteen and AQ wiring the syngery is really strong,hence the better presentationIMHO.
I actually had the opportunity to listen to the Musical Fidelity Nu Vista cd w/the intergrated MF,(sorry can't recall the model #,along with the AR CD3 W/LS16 ARC PRE&100.2 ARC AMP.Both systems were running w/ the Vandersteen 3a Sig's and Volcano AQ speaker cable.First off my initial impresssion was that the MF system was really warm and a bit too bloomy in the bass.In fact it was so bloomy I felt as if I were in a fog .Details in the mid's and highs were really masked ,needless to say I didn't care for the sound.When the dealer switched over to the ARC setup the detail became more pronounced and the bass had much more dynamics and overall punch.To my ears it sounded much better and less fatiguing .Now given the right equipment I'm sure you could get a better result w/the MF setup,I think w/ARC, Vandersteen and AQ wiring the syngery is really strong,hence the better presentationIMHO.
JC - Thanks for the kudos and backup. As I took pains to point out in my new thread, what I wrote wasn't supposed to focus on which of these DAC's 'slayed' the other, although of course for my own purposes this determination was important (and I also didn't mention the fact that the Basic prevents me from eventually using my DAC with formats other than 16/44 CD, which the Link handles). Rather, I wanted to examine in some kind of sensible way how it was that I could have experimented with an upsampling DAC that has been well-thought of and reviewed, and yet still come to the conclusion, both subjectively and objectively, that the upsampling process, now matter how subjectively pleasing it might have been on certain material in the short run, was basically degrading in its result, and seemed somewhat spurious and arbitrary in its implementation.

The fact is, I have always agreed with you about my Theta, believing that it had many discrete 'hi-fi' virtues, but was not the most 'musical' DAC in any overt way. In my new post, I deliberately omitted my lengthy listening impressions so that I could zero in on the issues I wanted to raise (I actually went on for several paragraphs about what I heard from the Gold Link and the Basic playing music, and all their strengths and weaknesses, in my original version, but wound up erasing all that, as it took too long, and wasn't really pertinent to my main points).

But here I will briefly say that the Basic IIIa has always impressed me as being a DAC that features a sound I would describe as having great clarity, power, and fullness. It shows a large soundstage with solid objects that are well-separated. It has a high degree of tonal neutrality where nothing predominates, but does possess notable air and weight. Dynamics at both ends are fully expressed. Transparency and detail are both of a high degree. It is not obviously smooth in its presentation, and adds no warmth. Tonal colors have strong intensity. Transients, with a clean digital feed, are very concisely portrayed, with no smear or overhang. I can hear very little in the way of phase or timing anomolies. No haziness or flatness. So what's not to like?

Well, as I mention in the new post, the Basic has always struck me as being slighty cool and dry in character. Maybe a tiny bit bright, with a little emphasis on leading edges of sounds that can seem somewhat clinical. There is a very slight background texture of a fine-grained 'digital burr', that sort of rides over the top of music like a light scrim or a fingerprint on glass, which is not really obscuring, but is there if you listen for it (which, to be fair, is true of most CD sound I have ever heard, unless some greater form of distortion or omission covers it up). It is not in any way romantic or intimate in its sound, but very matter-of-fact. It sounds correct, but not terribly personal.

One of the important things my controlled bypass test seems to have shown me, however, is that most of what I assumed were the somewhat less than completely captivating aspects of its character, are in reality probably an accurate representation of what's on the CDs. These caveats basically do not make an appearance when doing the controlled real-time comparision. They are not, I now suspect, intrinsic to the DAC, but rather to the majority of available disks. If another player could successfully render disks in a subjectively more sensuous way and still score as highly on the objective bypass test, then that would be an advance, and I concede the possibility - probably for much more money though. And I still fully sympathize with the subjectivists' wanting to love their CDs' sound, not just respect it. That desire may cloud one's judgement, however. I can't love anything (or anyone!) that isn't essentially honest with me, because that's the only way I can place my trust in something. I'm not blindly partial to my Basic, but I haven't ever been let down by it either. (And I can afford it!)

P.S. - To anyone investigating one of these used, you'll need a quality transport, jitter-box, balanced power conditioning, and digital interconnects to hear its best, in my experience.