Cable vs. Electronics: biggest bang for the buck

Bwhite, I think you are missing Audioengr's point about the various modules within a component not being tone controls. Correct me if I'm wrong Audioengr, but just because a module may add a small amount of noise or sound different from a similar module in another brand of component, it doesn't mean that the modules are acting as tone controls. Afterall, there is more measurable and unmeasurable differences in sound than just tonal balance. As we all know, the final "sonic signature" consists of many other audible elements, such as dynamic contrasts and shadings and a lack of distortion, to name but a few.

Also, Audioengr didn't say that the Linn CD12 sounds good because it uses short wires. He said that when wires are as short as the Linn's, their quality is practically irrelevant. This seems logical and I basically agree. I have found in my own experience, however, that improving even small lengths of wire in a component can sometimes yield significant results, such as when I replaced the cheap input and output wire in my old Adcom GFA-555 power amplifier with some custom 22g pure silver wire in a teflon jacket some years back. I suppose it depends on whether you use the better wire in places where it can affect the component's sound.

One of the problems we all have is that until we find the most "neutral" cable we can afford, we cannot hear whether the rest of our system has any additional weak links. Of course this is a "chicken and egg" problem, but is nevertheless true.

"Audioengr - you are totally overlooking the fact that each module in a component DOES add a sonic signature - maybe the gain and buffering stages do not but can you honestly say that two different analog output stages on CD players or two different power supply designs will sound the same?"

No I'm not. There is some level of noise and dynamic effects in each active stage, compression can be caused by some output stages, and some really poorly designed ones may have some non-linearity as a function of signal level etc.. However, none of these phenomena qualify as "tone control". The only one that does is the bandpass, which tends to be lower in frequency for some tubed equipment. Certianly, if all stages have -3dB point at 20kHz, then there will be a cumulative effect on both bandpass and phase shift.

Okay guys we are getting way off track from the original post. I do believe that cables offer the biggest bang for the buck. The right $300 cable can revolutionize a system where as a $300 component wouldn't in most cases.

now I digress...

Hshapiro, I do not think I am missing Audioengr's point.
He kind of side stepped my arguments by mentioning two modules which do not effect the sound the gain and the buffer. But.. what about the other modules?

First off, I believe the term "tone control" as well as "Band-Aid" have both been negative ways people have chosen to describe the effects of cables on a system. While the terms are for the most part accurate, the terms are still a slam on cables in general and really not fair commentary on a system.

Secondly, I have never taken a LinCD12 apart so I cannot confirm whether or not the wires are short. They may infarct be but its silly to attribute the astonishing sound of a Linn CD12 only to short wire... Audioengr does also state that changing bad wire to good wire might make an improvement but it would be infinitesimal. This seems to differ from the results you had with your Adcom GFA-555 where you replaced cheap input wire with "custom" 22g pure silver wire in a Teflon jacket. Can you describe the changes you heard? Do you think that just maybe, the tone of the Adcom changed a bit? If not, what did change? How did you know it was better?

I guess I have stepped across a new line in the sand when I speak of the tone controls inside of a component as well as the components themselves being tone controls designed to produce a specific sound.

This side of the sand is fun to be on.. so for fun, let me ask, hasn't any one here thought that just maybe, ALL AUDIO COMPONENTS (REGARDLESS OF WHICH ONE) ARE IN FACT TONE CONTROLS... What do you think differentiates McIntosh, LAMM, Krell, Levinson, AudioAero, AudioMeca, Sony, Pioneer, blah.... blah... blah....and yes the Linn CD12?? They all sound different do they not? Why do you suppose that is? Could it be tone?

Tone comes in many forms and yes, dynamic contrasts, shadings and a lack of distortion can in fact be a direct result of "tone" since the definition of TONE as it refers to sound is: the quality or character of sound, a distinct pitch, a sound of distinct pitch and vibration, quality, and duration, a... blah... blah... blah.. the list goes on.
Tone is a pretty big word. And since audiophile tend to use visual cues to describe what they hear, tone can be even more profound than the above definition indicates.

Anyhow, perhaps we are not aware that many aftermarket manufacturers have been quite busy upgrading parts inside of the new SACD players (they don't just shorten the wire), they alter the various "modules" as I called them - with new parts. The upgrades improve the quality of sound these components (SACD players) produce.

Now.. what is the difference between the before SACD player and the after CD player?

Do you think that maybe the tonal quality... --> From Stereophile Glossary: The accuracy (correctness) with which reproduced sound replicates the timbres of the original instruments. --> may have improved?

Audioengr... I would be very interested to know what your system is comprised of. You make a rather bold statement:

Until you have heard a superior system where there are no "weak links", one that is wired with truly low-loss IC's and speaker cables, you will not know what I am talking about. This "tone-control" mentality is what makes it really difficult to get an even playing field to compare cable performance.

Who needs an even playing field to compare cable performance? Which combination of audio components makes for an even playing field? Isn't sound the ultimate playing field, or are electrical properties more important?

And.. while were on the subject of even playing field. How many of you have a room that sounds just like mine? or Audioengr's?

THERE IS NO EVEN PLAYING FIELD!

Audioengr is there a difference in sound between Auricaps and Black Gate? Do Caddocks sound the same as Vishays?

Bwhite, whatever component, including cables, that gets out of the way of the original musical performance through reduced distortion of the signal can offer the "biggest bang for the buck." If, for instance, your electronic components which cost ten times that of your cables are flawed in some obvious way, no $300 cable will come to their rescue. In fact, a good cable, regardless of price, will only reveal other problems upstream. Obviously, a $300 component would be incapable of "revolutionizing" a system. I would agree, however, that if your electronics are fundamentally sound, a properly designed $300 cable can make a remarkable improvement, given that your previous cables were not properly designed.

I happen to believe that all modules, including gain can effect sound, even if only in a less obvious way. For instance, the choice of a pot for controlling levels can effect the sound.

The best bang for the buck in one part of my system cost almost nothing. I own a Linn Sondek LP12 turntable, with ITTOK arm and an older Kiseki Blue cartridge. Years ago, I tapped on the arm until I found the point of greatest resonance, and wrapped a short lightweight piece of clear rubberized tape around that point. The improvement was remarkable for the cost of about 2 cents.

While I no longer have the Adcom GFA-555 amp, a few years ago, a friend of mine who hand-makes cable, suggested that I try to replace a few of the wires within the amp with some of his wire. This Adcom, I should add, was already modified and markedly improved by Stan Warren of PS Audio fame. After a short burn-in period, the improvements from inserting the new wire were immediate and confirmed by other audiophile friends who were not told of the change. Yes, one of the changes was in the tone, but it was the least obvious improvement in this tweak. The frequency extremes gained greater extension. Whenever the original signal is allowed to pass unhindered, some increase in a particular frequency will shift the overall tonal balance. The greatest improvements were that the sound became quicker, with greater dynamics and weight. Clarity improved as well, and there was a decrease in audible noise. All of this came from changing a few inches of wire in critical areas of the amplifier. I should also add that the original Adcom wire was of the standard copper stranded variety, not as short as possible, and was hanging over the main circuit board. This probably contributed to the noise I spoke of. We used solid core silver wire in the shortest possible lengths and situated them out of the path of the circuits.