Safe audiogon transactions; lowering the bar.

Hi Bill E.- I was agreeing with Bishopwill's statement: "Interesting point of view, Bill, in that you detail all the steps you take to protect yourself from uscrupulous buyers yet bristle at the idea that buyers might desire to protect themselves from unscrupulous sellers, as well."

Perhaps we both misunderstood you. I agree with most of the analysis in your most recent post. And if your statement about how escrow works is correct, then I guess I agree with all of it. However, in your example, I believe that escrow agent would not release funds back to buyer until seller verfied that the goods had been returned. Since I've not had a problem such as you describe, I cannot say which scenario is correct, yours or mine.

With regard to the $60K transaction; if I'm spending that much money you damn well better believe that I will inspect and accept goods in person ( my first house cost $55K.) The one time I make a $2K+ deal, I had a friend in the seller's city go check it out.

I do think that you are missing the boat in not feeling comfortable making a deal based on substantial feedback. If the guy has done 50 or 100 transactions, all to good reports, why would you be the one that went bad? Anyone can disagree on condition and if you're going to get cranked about 1 AGS point, then maybe internet is not the way for you to buy. However, if your concern is deliberate misrepresentation, then a significant feedback profile, followed by a phone call or two should do the trick for most items. Check the feedback and forum history of the 10 most recent feedback posters for the guy or gal you are considering doing business with. Drop them a line. My point is that since $ are often untraceable while goods are more so, the buyer is actually all of a risk when he sends an m.o./cashiers check out to buy.

BTW, I agree that a 3rd party insurer is worth a fee (1% each to buyer and seller, I would say is fair). How about it Audiogon? Also remember I said that so far, I have not felt a need to post negative feedback for any deal here or on ebay.

Hi again Swampwalker,

We seem to be getting closer on our ideas. I wonder why you think that I don't trust buyers/sellers with substantial feedback. If I read correctly, that's Bishopwill and others. I personally have 270+ positives with no negatives between here and Ebay while doing deals for well into 6 figures. Me?
I trust anyone with virtually all positives, who sounds and acts solid. Act flaky and scare the hell out of me. I don't need to buy or sell so, make me nervous and we've got no deal to do. Easy. Your personal choice to look only at recent feedback doesn't work for me. I care about character and history and subtance. I buy substantial items regularly and work to be cost effective but not be scammed.

I'm certain that Audiogon could expand the verification system and combined with verification and documentation enter into an insurance arrangement with a 3rd party provider to insure transactions.

BUT and I really mean BUT, if a thief wants to steal, it's going to happen. Maybe to me, maybe not, but certainly he'll find willing participants.

I'd really like to see the feedback include the amount of the sale, if buyer or seller and type of payment. It makes evaluating the prior transactions more effective.

Lakefrontroad, I'm not sure what the point is in your ad hominem argument. As to my negative feedback on ebay, I make no secret of it, or the reason for it. In fact, I made that reason clear a while back.

Email me privately, if you're interested, and I'll fill you in. In the meantime, attack my arguments if you like but don't attack me.

Fondly,

Will

I agree with Lakefrontroad that if buyer or seller is out to rip off their counterpart, it's going to happen. Furthermore, as his $16K example shows, if it does happen, don't kid yourself that you're going to somehow use the arms of justice to rectify the situation. You're going to find a way to deal with losing $16K.

I lost $1800 to DSSMAN last summer with the phony COD check. It taught me that 1)a phony COD check looks pretty darn good if you only glance at it, 2) that anybody who wants to pass off a phony cashiers check for COD can, and 3) if you receive a phony cashiers check as payment for COD, the only real retribution you have is to spend a lot of time talking to law enforcement agencies about how they can't do anything for you. Mind you, they were very attentive and responsive, they just truly couldn't do anything about it.

I probably won't do COD as a seller again, based on the fact that I have positive feedback here and on ebay established over a couple years and that I'm easily contactable and verifiable that I am who I say I am. That said, I might do it again as well - in retrospect, I probably broke every rule about insuring a positive transaction that I have ever defined in getting burned. Almost any of them, if self-enforced, would have allowed me to avoid that. IOW, shame on me.

I didn't have a transaction for many months after DSSMAN, largely because I didn't want to buy or sell anything, but partially because it left an obvious bad taste in my mouth. Recently, I both bought and sold items over $1K and both transactions went totally smoothly and were very satisfying. Once again capturing the good feeling of getting great performance for a fraction of the cost and remembering that I've saved oh so much more than $1800 through this type of transaction.

The bottom line, for me, is protect yourself every way you can, recognize that there will always be risk, and never make a deal that puts you in a situation that you can't absorb if you do happen into a rip-off. -Kirk

I just bought a very expensive piece of gear on Audiogon. I sent a personal check and after it cleared drove a couple hundred miles to pick up the pre-amp/
CD player and had a great day in the seller's listening room. We both brought some of our favorite music and both of us learned some new music. The equipment was exactly as sold. Brand new/un-opened and the experience could not have been more of a pleasure. Too bad the world is not always like that.