A difficult LP reproduction question


I have a nice high end system and wish to add a second turntable (for fun!). The choices are likely Thorens TD124MK ll or Lenco L75. Both these are old technology and will spin 78 RPM and use idler drive.

Desire is to experiment with moving magnet cartridge, inexpensive phono stages and 78 RPM records to name but a few.

Here are but a few of the economy priced phono stages that I've been researching for the past three weeks. (Hope that explains my lack of posting lately).

Seduction
http://www.bottlehead.com/et/adobespc/Seduction/seduction.htm

EAR 834P Deluxe
http://www.ear-usa.com/earproducts.htm

Lehmann Audio Black Cube SE
http://www.amusicdirect.com/products/detail.asp?sku=ALEHBCPLUS

Antique Soundlab Mini
http://www.divertech.com/aslminiphono.htm

Musical Fidelity X-LPSv3
http://www.musicalfidelity.com/xponframeset.html

NAD PP2
http://www.nadelectronics.com/hifi_amplifiers/pp2_closerlook.htm

Any Audiogon member that have direct experience with any combination of these, I would appreciate your comments.
128x128Ag insider logo xs@2xalbertporter
Eldartford, you appear to not like old (inexpensive) technology yet you actively work to disprove the quality of modern (inexpensive) technology as well.

Cryo AC outlets being a perfect example, you have a rather long running thread:

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?htech&1079992196&read&h12&zzlSubaruguru&rest

What part of high end audio do you approve of? Perhaps only the most expensive, or absolutely free?
What cartridge are you considering? I have seen some special 78 version of the Denon DL103 at Phonophono.de for around 200.- Euro (the DL103/78, http://www.phonophono.de/english/html/denon_details_1.html). Might be something worth looking at....
Hi all

Fwiw I have enjoyed using a Lenco 75 with mono Goldring cartridge through an Armstrong 127 tuner amp. This is a valve unit with a normal (albeit old) riaa phono stage. Frank Sinatra never sounded better in that system. The typical 78 hiss was there but the music quality made it irrelevant. I did intend connecting in an old Leak pre-amp that had variable equalisation for 78s but the sound was so good as above, that can wait for another day.

Regards
Albertporter...Like wine, some old technology is superb, and other old technology has turned sour. I think the old idler wheel drive for turntables is an example of the latter.

In general I think your characterization of me is a bit off the mark.

I recon that digital power amps are a modern and inexpensive technology. I have three CarverPro ZR1600. (And a Panasonic SA-XR25 for the HT rig). But for my rear channels I am still using KenwoodLO7M monoblocks, a classic from the 80's.

I approve of Dynaco tube power amps, (which I once owned) and they were old technology and inexpensive (when I built them).

I most definitly do not approve of the "most expensive" of high end equipment, and I would put a $150 wall outlet in this category. My main speakers are a set of three Magneplanar MG1.6, which are neither expensive nor cheap. They fit exactly the type of equipment that you say I don't endorse.

As to the Cryo'd outlet test...I am not trying to convince anyone but myself. I have taken the trouble to seriously evaluate an idea that I am inclined (for scientific reasons) to disbelieve. It's been said by folk like you that one can't have an opinion without a listening test. OK... I am listening. What more do you want?
Well I find this discussion of cheap'n fun phono stages fascinating. I wasn't aware of the Rat Shack project, and now I am I think I'll have to give it a go! Thanks Joe and Eldartford! It seems to me that Gram Slee started by making a phono stage for 78s, you should look them up Albert, and see if it is still (or ever was) made. Unfortunately, my books are still all in boxes. I believe it was an early Hi Fi + that did the review of this 78 preamp (if it was a Gram Slee).

On the subject of the Mini Phono, however, I am certain of what's going on, as this is what I use when playing my Lencos. While my regular phono stage is quite good - which despite being a Pioneer Elite preamp from the '80s (avaunt Demon!) is of surprising quality (it surprised me), better than the NYAL I had used until I acquired it in fact (the surprise being I had bought the Pioneer as a stand-in until I could get the NYAL repaired) - it cannot handle the extreme dynamics of my Lencos (this is not hyperbole), so I use it strictly for my belt-drives (it has deeper bass than my Mini Phono): my Maplenoll, Ariston RD11S and Audiomeca, among others. The only cheap phono stage which will accomodate the Lenco's dynamics without distorting is the ASL Mini Phono, because it is tubed. This is a superb unit for the money, and has much fun tweak factor built in (as do all ASL units). It also has tube rolling potential for yet more future fun. I bought a pair of severely measured (specifically for the ASL's electrical characteristics) and matched Philips NOS tubes for mine and it is dead quiet. Not too much gain though, but not a problem, and I have the volume control on my preamp, which can go to 11! Given the Lenco's dynamics, the NAD and Musical Fidelity need not apply. The jump in price from the ASL to the other options is not subtle. And will they match the ASL's glorious tube midrange (truly, this is a giant-killer phono preamp, given matched tubes for quietness, which are absolutely necessary)?

If you decide to go for the Thorens, be aware that this is a "quasi-idler-wheel-drive", and so the dynamics will not match the Lenco's dynamics (the Thorens was found to be less dynamic than the true idler-wheel drive big Garrards in published comparisons), which means that the NAD and MF preamps can again apply, though I don't think they will match the ASL anyway. Being tubed, the ASL also has much more "educational" potential.

While it is true that many idler-wheel drives did have problems with flat spots and rumble, the Lenco is so designed so that flat spots do not develop. The sprung suspension of the motor also does much to eradicate rumble. This, among other things, makes the Lenco an excellent way to delve into the potential glories of idler-wheel drives. Bravo for your experimental and fun spirit Albert!