Transformer stepup size

A fellow A'goner was using a high gain phono stage. Just for kicks he borrowed my BentAudio stepups and tried them into the MM stage of his preamp. That setup blew his high gain phono stage out of the water. He literally had it up for sale hear in less than a week.

There is no "always" on this issue. It depends on the components being compared, and possibly on other components in the system as well. As '4yanx' said, how about some specific recommendations instead of dogma.

I've used Mitchell cotter passive, Counterpoint SA-2 tube active, Music reference RM-4 tube active, ARC MCP-2 SS active, supex passive, Ortofon 3000 passive on various preamps ( ARC sp-11 MKII, counterpoint SA-5000, Marantz 7-c, music reference RM-5, HK Citation I ) and found very different results. However, the external step up devices are more dynamic overall than the build-in MC stage in SP-11 and SA5000. I prefer the tube active step up like the SA-2 and the RM-4 over the rest. The RM-4 has the best dynamic overall. The SA-2 is not as "see through" but it has slight warmer and relax tone compared to the RM-4 ( thx to tube retifier.)

However, if I have $$$$ to buy the super expensive reference high gain phono stages then maybe I don't need the step up.

I have not found a better MC stage than HK citation I + music reference RM-4 combo for the VDH black beauty so far.

Doug,

I too think that there are always tradeoffs:
The high-gain devices are far not linear and surely complex. Designing a high-gain phonostage is a challenge of carefull selection of parameters and feedback but in return still even for budget it's better choice than step-up especially in low-end resolution that even a very good quality transformer won't have...

Just to chime in quickly here..I recently added a Bent Audio MU SUT 1:10 ratio(20db gain) for My Dynavector 17d2Mk2..Using a ARC PH3 SE with the fixed 54bd gain. Although the Dyna is now 0.26mV output(up from 0.23) it drove the PH3 SE okay and sounded good. But, without the MU SUT, it lacked the dynamics that brings the Dynavector to life, Better transparency, dynamics, bass is tighter and more weight. Once broken in, and properly loaded for the Dyna..the Bent Audio is far and away better sounding than the ARC alone without any negative downside IMO...Cheers!

Dear friends: Over the time I use severals stepup transformers and head-amps: Ortofon T 2000 and T 5000, Audio Technica AT 1000T, Classe NIL 3, Denon, Expressive Technologies, Klyne, etc... and in that times I always think that this was the best way to hear the reproduction of a low output moving coil cartridge ( for many years ). Then I discovery the Dennesen JC 80 and the Vendetta Research ( high gain phono stages ) and my audio/music/reproduction/life change for a better understanding of what is what we are loosing in the music reproduction at home an understand that before an audiophile I'm a music lover ( it's very dificult to tell where are the limits of these two adjectives ). Since then I always are looking for the " straight line " in the audio reproduction, looking for the products that degraded less the audio signal. We receive through a LP, CD, SACD or DVDA a signal that comes heavy degraded for all the many previous steps where the signal has to pass before we can put on our front end and do the reproduction. I think that if all of us loves music, we have a minum obligation that is: " that the signal suffer the less posible degradation ". The SUT goes against this. Maybe, for many people the SUT is the only way to go. I explain this:
Like Marakanetz and S23chang told us a high gain phono stage is a challenge and very expensive but set you back what we are looking for : " real signal music reproduction " and believe me there it is the only way to get closer to the music.
The experience that speaks Kehut has a simple explanation: for to do a good audio reproduction of a MC cartridge of 0.26mV we need at least 60db of gain that the PH3 does not have it and that is why he hear that differences through the SUT that put the gain for the correct signal reproduction. It is not that the SUT sound better than the PH3 it is only that put the necesary gain for the reproduction, something that the PH3 can't do it.BTW, Doug what is the high gain friend's phono stage?
Recomendations: Burmester, Boulder, FM Acoustics, Classe, gryphon, CTC Blowtorch, Rowland.

Regards and always enjoy the music.
Raul.