Results from Beta Testers of New Formulas

I read through the entire thread in some detail. Your interest in the topic is obvious and in playing devil's advocate perhaps was meant to stimulate more discussion, BUT your tone is antagonistic and uncalled for. If you developed a formula that you intended on marketing, would you go into any detail as to the composition? Intellectual property is always closely guarded, it's the differentiator that makes your customers buy your product over a competing product (or simply copying your invention).

Well, Jeff, if you actually did read the entire thread in some detail, you should understand that my obvious interest was centered upon the claim and the GUARANTEE that these fluids would not damage vinyl records. As such, I politely questioned about the research and study that had gone into the development of the product, visa vis its impact on plasticizers and the degradation of these components by cleaners. I also specifically said that I was asking for NEITHER the formula NOR a list of ingredients. My initial questions were then summarily dismissed by the developer (but your reference to “marketing” is most illuminating). But, if I WAS marketing a product I’d be happy to show that I had more than a basic knowledge with respect to interactions between certain chemicals and vinyl (which is NOT shown), answer relevant questions (which were NOT), and demonstrate that I’d done my homework on which to tout my product and guarantee (other than to say that I’ve been listening to vinyl for a long time and have a friend who works at NASA). IMHO, THAT is the differentiator which would hold me in good stead with potential PAYING CUSTOMERS, but thanks for your take on customer service.

Anyway, after I pressed for answers, I was met with derision by the developer who attempted to berate me based on the content of one of my previous posts – which had NOTHING to do with the question at hand. THAT was an antagonistic and uncalled for approach that you seem to either forget or choose not to mention.

I don't have a degree in chemistry and certainly don't work in the field myself; as such I rely on what I hear rather than speculate on how or why the fluid does what it does. I've tried Paul's two step process and it works very well. Paul was kind enough to send me some samples, that's the extent of my stake in this whole thing. I also know that Paul went to one helluva lot of trouble to put together a system for a girl that was paralyzed when hit by a drunk driver. Many folks here chipped in with gear and whatnot, but Paul put a ton of time and effort in helping out Leslie. I really doubt you'll gain a lot of points with people on the 'Gon for taking potshots at a truly stand-up guy.

I don’t have a degree in chemistry, nor do I work in that field, either. Yes, you have to rely upon what you hear. In the case of these fluids, I haven’t heard much – at least not what I’d like or need to hear before risking it on my vinyl. Granted, there was a time when I would not have insisted upon such information, but no more. After doing a good bit of my own research, I have keen interest in the development of such products and the developer’s grasp of complex chemical interactions BEFORE I use a cleaning fluid – free for now, or not. It is, obviously, anyone else’s decision as to what they do and how the proceed. As far as making points, get real. I’ve been on this board for some time now and have taken both popular and unpopular stances on a variety of issues. In my mind, the idea of this board is to ask, answer, and comment - in the spirit of exchanging ideas and information upon which to base decisions or to further our enjoyment. Period. If one is looking to make “real” points I might suggest anonymous charitable contributions.

Your point about helping the young lady is truly heartwarming, and I mean that sincerely. Too little of such goes on these days, and usually it does so only after the request of others. However, it has nothing to do with the matter at hand. Mother Theresa was a wonderful woman but, with all due respect, I’d have the same questions for her if she came out with a vinyl cleaning fluid.

At the end of the day an informed opinion is what counts. Take Paul up on his offer, try out the stuff and report on your findings. Costs you nothing and all of us will certainly listen to what you have to say.

At the end of the day, you are absolutely correct about informed opinion. But, one cannot be informed, as a matter of definition, without adequate information. I don’t feel the developer has provided anything close to that, which is why I posted my questions. It is still odd to me why he has chosen to avoid these questions. Surely, if he is a “stand-up” guy, he can get beyond his personal distaste for me and provide meaningful information to potential future customers. Then again, if he cannot answer them or feels the questions unimportant, that tells us all a lot, too. Performance in terms of how the fluids clean gunk from records is only part of the overall story. I hope they work for folks and that they do not damage their records with a product that was brewed without adequate knowledge of and background in chemical/vinyl reactions.

Oh and, BTW, the previous thread was certainly not “yanxed” as it was so flippantly stated. Nice try at yet another diversion, though. If I had to guess, I’d say that the moderators looked at its purpose and intent – offering a product for free that would later be sold on Audiogon. Even this thread was started by the developer to garner comments on his product that will later carry a price tag. It’s called marketing and it’s called advertising. Last time I checked, it was also against the rules here.

David

I am one of the 20 testers and find Paul's solution to be exceptional. I heard nothing but improvements when I cleaned both new and old vinyl. I took many albums that I would consider VG condition and cleaned them with another well known brand. I listened and then used Paul's system. I heard improvements in all areas-music came out of a blacker background,surface noise was decreased, dynamics were increased etc. I do not want to publicaly discredit any other well known brands which I own but in my experience Paul's system bettered them. I have no financial interest in this product but I hope it succeeds because it's hard to go back at least for me after you hear it what it does.

Paul,
I have yet to receive my samples for testing....

4Yanx,

Like I said... I'm no chemist so whatever answers or explanations a developer would provide would be meaningless to me anyway. I would imagine that would apply to you as well, although as you pointed out in your rant you have some active interest in the area so perhaps you're better informed than the rest of us. It's certainly obvious you have a burning desire to be right about this issue. I tried the stuff and it works well, as for any long term effects I'll have to monitor the records and see if there are any untoward changes. The records I used the two-step process on were lost causes and they sound very good now, so what's to lose? I view this as a pleasant hobby, not something to get all worked up about.

I agree with 4yanx that this thread seems to be nothing more than a marketing tool and free advertising. The last thread was likely pulled for that reason and this one will likely meet it's same demise.

Since paulfrumpkin had asked for interested parties to phone or e-mail him for his generous offer, he HAS their contact info as well as their address, right? If all he was after was their opinion, he could have done so directly. Instead, he posts a thread asking for users to share their opinion. Why? Free publicity? Hmmm, is that not a violation of the rules? Perhaps someone with more knowledge could answer that? Common sense tells me that it appears to be a violation ...

Secondly, Paul refused to answer questions about his fluid. 4 yanx has every right to ask whether or not Paul has done his homework and if he has even done any real chemical analysis or analyzed what is in a vinyl record. He has the right to ask if tests were conducted to determine whether or not harm can occur with the use of his fluid. This is not mean, this is not spiteful, not in the least. To me it appears as nothing more than asking for info. I can't understand why Paul didn't answer, unless no tests were conducted or he doesn't understand the question.

Paul has agreed to replace any damaged records at face value, but to me, the value of a record is not determined by replacement value alone, but also by availability. As an example, I'd paid $300 for my Fred Jackson "Hootin' and Tootin'" Blue Note original. It took me 5 years to find a NM copy. Would I risk cleaning it with a fluid when the chemist that made it refuses to tell me the tests conducted to determine it was actually safe? In today's market, via eBay, I might be able to find one quicker, but do I risk it when less than 500 copies were made?

It would be nice to know what tests were done to determine that this cleaner is safe and if there are any long term effects (remember the Armor All CD treatment fiasco? It took 5 to 7 years to make my CD's unplayable) . I'm with 4yanx on this one.