Why is Double Blind Testing Controversial?

Hearhere, again why the need to insist or imply that the average audiophile is deceived. What are the "many factors that drive preference in addition to sound" besides ergonomics, convenience, and build quality.

In a Utopian sense I love the idea of DBT, I doubt I would ever take the time to evaluate a component this way however. It just isn't efficient or necessary for me to do so. I have no difficulty accepting, even admiring, someone's efforts to evaluate upgrades in this manner, but so many of the conclusions/preconceptions of some DBT disciples (or claimed disciples; see below) are so clearly absurd, then to have these faulty conclusions presented so forcefully as truth is somewhat vexing, if allowed under one's skin. I would expect the converse to be true as well when called names.

I also believe that many identified as DBT disciples probably are mislabeled and really should be identified more accurately as skeptics hitching themselves to the DBT banner. It would be interesting to find out how many in this category truly practice DBT methodology. Presumably these are the ones that subjective audiophiles find to be ignorant and grating when addressing issues that contradict truths revealed to the subjective disciple based on their personal experience. The subjective conclusion would be supported by DBT if all variables were controlled, assuming of course that subjective disciple is not deceived. What what this thread all about again?

Wellfed: I think that Hearhear was saying that well conducted DBT's are supposed to be able to allow researchers to identify if there is a discernable difference, not that there aren't discernable differences. Once they can verify that differences are detectable on a repeated basis under comfortable conditons, they can then dig in and try to understand exactly what those differences are and why they exist.

Personally, i have no problem with this type of test so long as suitable subjects are used. I do have a problem with knuckleheads selected at random being forced to make decisions at the drop of a hat under less than ideal / uncomfortable conditons with products / materials that they are unfamiliar with and the results from those "tests" being force-fed to us as being "the truth". Sean
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Sean, my response to Hearhere pertained to his/her first post. While Hearhere, in my eyes, appears to be one of the more honorable, reasonable, and sincere of the DBT suporters, there is still a significant insinuation that audiophiles, as group, are subject to powerful forces of deception, along with the insinuation that such deception is prevalent. As for knuckleheads, I would suspect that they are present in both camps. It would be nice if someone could devise a DBT to determine who the knuckleheads are, but for the time being I think it best to determine these by simple subjective discernment. I truly hope I am not getting too nasty with my commentary, sigh.

Wellfed: I was referring to people collected off the street as "knuckleheads". I should have said "average joe's", etc... I do agree with your point though : )

I can't understand why one would want to perform tests on subjects that have no idea as to what they are listening for or how to discern the differences. That is, unless one wanted to promote a certain ideology with the less than optimized test individuals and conditions. Most of the test results that are foisted upon us are those performed upon random individuals, not those that know how to listen and not just "hear". There is a BIG difference as far as i'm concerned.

Even within the ranks of "skilled listeners" you'll have variances as to what people can hear and what they listen for in terms of sonic cues and signatures. As such, if one wanted to make some type of "final statement" as to what was audible and what wasn't, you would have to assemble a very large group of individuals from all walks of life and go from there. At that point, one could start off with simple ( highly audible ) test differences and weed the crowd out from there. As the tests became harder, the "cream of the crop" would be left. At that point, we might be able to say that the average person off of the street will only make it from Point A up to point M in terms of audible discernment. Those that fell short of Point M would be considered to be below average in hearing and / or listening abilities. A select few might make it up to Point S, but anything beyond that would truly require excellent ears and trained listening skills. Beyond that point, it is possible to hear from point A to point Z under ideal conditions by a person with excellent hearing and listening skills. It would be these people that i would use as "guinea pigs" when trying to draw the line between what the human ear and brain is capable of detecting and processing in a linear manner. Does this make sense ?

This approach allows room for growth AND reduction based upon the individual. Obviously hearing and listening skills vary from person to person AND change over time. To me such testing would be logical and i might tend to believe the results a bit more.

If i had to pick and choose an individual to represent "audiophiles" as a group in terms of hearing acuity and listening skills, i would have gone with Enid Lumley circa the late 1970's and early 1980's. I have no doubt in my mind that she was a very skilled listener and had excellent hearing. I'm also 100% certain that she could hear things that i ( and probably most others ) can't. As such, her test results would give me a point of reference as to just how much one could hear and how much i was actually missing. Sean
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Sean, I always thought one of the key features of a true DBT is that the subject does not know the nature of variable element. When applied to audio the listener should not know what to listen for.

I find it interesting that both sides of this issue are strongly suspicious of the motives of the other side. It seems that the interpretation of the results are more controversial than the actual DBT itself.