Results from Beta Testers of New Formulas

First, many thanks, Paul, for sending the second, larger samples.

I figured I could now afford to "waste" a little and went to my stack of unplayable-but-can't-bear-to-throw-them-out-discs and found a Herbie Mann album with arrangements by Oliver Nelson ("Latin Mann - Afro to Bossa to Blues"). It's a two-eye Columbia that had clearly led a hard life before winding up at Goodwill.

Long story short, it's not only playable but sounds sensational. Sure, some of the surface noise and clicks are still there, but they don't interfere with my enjoyment -- it's left my purgatory stack for good. And if you don't look too closely (especially at all those marks around the spindle), you'd almost think it was new -- very shiny indeed.

Earlier I had used your fluids to clean a REALLY old copy of Reiner's performance of Pictures at an Exhibition (Italian RCA label, mfg. in Germany!). As I noted on some posts re the new SACD version, this LP definitely waxed (sorry) the SACD. Also, while our comparison tests of two copies of the same records were less dramatic, tho still in favor of your stuff, these were all near-mint to begin with and treated first with "conventional" RC fluids.

Following comments here, I left the #1 fluid on the Herbie Mann disc for well over a minute. I've been using Last brushes for this exercise and wet them down first with distilled water, primarily to "ration" your fluids, though I think it's a good idea regardless.

I think these fluids have DEFINITE sales potential. Just received the new KAB catalog -- you might send Kevin Barrett a sample (www.kabusa.com).

Great stuff. Thanks again, Paul.

Something that you folks might find interesting. Sean
>

http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/vinyl/messages/345630.html

RE: ULTRA-PURE WATER

As promised, I contacted AquaFX, a Divison of Aqua Engineering & Equipment, Inc., in Winter Park, Florida. These guys are the ultra-pure water gurus whom Psychicanimal suggested that I contact.

The first reaction of the guy I spoke with (Bob) was that ultra-pure was too aggressive for vinyl LPs: it has the potential leach plasticizers and other large chain molecules out of the vinyl ... even though it doesn't do so with food storage safe plastics (e.g., PET, MDPE, HDPE and Nalgene). Bob thought there would be a point where, when enough other stuff is added to the ultra-pure water, this doesn't occur, and he's going to get back to me on what that point is.

However, unlike most surfactants, detergents, soaps and cleaners, the surfactant I use is a single molecule. The benefit of a single molecule surfactant is that it can be effective at very low concentrations. This is a good thing when it comes to removing the cleaner by vacuum or rinse and vacuum. (Of course, the wetting agent adds another molecule, so we're at a 2 molecule soup).

So while I wait for Bob to get back to me, I'm a little leery of going down this path. Yes, ultra-pure water is a good solvent. But perhaps it's too good of a solvent. More later.

Best regards,
Paul

Non-tester jumping in here, just to offer thanks to all who are giving of their time, energy, knowledge and beater vinyl. It seems like you're getting excellent results so far and there's potential for even better ones with that water quality improvement in the works.

Joe quoted a comment I made about how often we use our stylus cleaner. We frequently play 10 or more sides with only a dry brush swipe between sides to relocate the cat hairs. I've gone 20+ sides without needing to clean. Paul's doohickey is the best stylus cleaner I know, but not needing to clean the stylus at all? Priceless. Record cleaning is orders of magnitude more important than stylus cleaning.

While a need for stylus cleaning clearly correlates well with dirt in the grooves, IME a stylus often comes up clean even after playing a noisy side. If the grunge is stuck to the vinyl... Listening is the ultimate indicator, as usual.

We do have stubborn LPs that resist repeated applications of RRL, Vinyl-zyme, Premier, alchohol-based solutions, brillo pads, etc. If vigorous scrubbing with DD brushes and repeated Loricraft sweeps won't clean these things then maybe Paul's solutions will. Can't hurt to try, so I'll be ordering a batch - once he gets some decent bottles and clean water of course! ;-)

BTW, some of the irretrievably noisy LP's in our collection were ruined with tap water and a GroovMaster. No amount of subsequent cleaning has helped. I caution everyone: avoid using tap water on anything but a beater record. I don't know what's in your water, but ours often contains high levels of manganese oxides (I think that's what Paul found). Once something like that gets ground into the vinyl, enzymes, alchohol, deionised water and juju juice are all useless. Metal oxides probably aren't much good for the stylus either.

BTW, it makes perfect sense to this non-chemist that leaving Paul's enzymatic solution on the LP for a bit would help. Enzyme reactions take some amount of time, right?

BTW #2, I don't know about the inventors/providers of other cleaning solutions, but I'm pretty sure the reason Brian Weitzel (RRL) hasn't chimed in on this thread is simply that he is a gentleman. His chemical knowledge and practical experiences would undoubtedly be beneficial, but commenting on a thread devoted to a competitor's product would be unprofessional and provocative. Brian is neither of these things. Even in private conversation I have never known him to be other than a model of propriety.

Doug: I've commented on the "beading up vs surface penetration" area of this discussion in threads where Brian did respond. As far as i know, neither he nor anyone else has refuted the comments that i've made about a lack of penetration below the surface resulting in a lack of deep cleaning. Besides learning about this type of stuff from a Chemical Engineer that used to work for NASA, it would seem to be a matter of common sense. After all, if you can't get below the surface, you can't clean below the surface. Since most of the "grundge" resides in the "nooks & crannies" of a disc, a solvent that lacks proper penetration below surface level can only do a superficial job of cleaning. This is probably why Joe aka Jphii was still pulling "gobs of grundge" off of what he assumed were "previously cleaned" discs. They might have been "cleaned", but to what extent was up to the previous solvents & methods used. Sean
>