Help me build a fine PC sound system

Steve, I’m sorry I misspelled your companies name. Just a typo.. not poor intent. I’ll note that for the future.

Everyone tries what they can on what level they can justify or afford.

In the under a few hundred < $400 - $500 is all I’ve been able to check out, so that is where my claims extend. I’ll stand by what I said with those parameters now in place.

Decent converters? So IYO, where do decent conversion interfaces begin in price? $1K, $2K?

Using that word alone says the Lynx AES 16E is at least a ‘decent’ converter/interface/DAC.

At least.

Albeit, a secondary buy of just 5 or 700 on the heels of a previous likewise buy keeps some items from being auditioned by many.

What I’ve seen at your website does confuse me. Last time I looked there several items were being offered for various purposes. Converters, clocks, along with upgrades for just about each one. So even though some base conversion devices exist there… if optimally outfitted as your own site seems to suggest they could be, some approach a couple grand or more…. which… IMHO… makes them a far more thoughtful and precarious purchase, than merely an impulse buy, and further complicates the entire matter.

I believe you said yourself in a thread on another site that a particular device of yours outperformed the Lynx AES 16 PCI Express card…. Albeit, following my purchase of a Lynx. In spite of how that comment was delivered and/or how I received it, I did go look at your devices anyhow as I certainly am one who does nnot know everything about everything. That was when I felt one of your gizmos done properly, was a $2K or so investment. And that was the cost for a non full bandwidth device.

…and it’s cost then was around $800. Making it then several hundred dollars more than the Lynx AES 16E.

Then too are the cost for cables to connect up these added clocks, power supplies for those powered items.

The Lynx or Hiface EVO, either plug right in, or need just a USB cord.

Given that, well, we’re talking apples and oranges right?

I’m not taking you to task here Steve, but let’s not forget, it is merely a claim made by the maker/seller that promises rewards of higher performance, and not a general unbiased consensus.

All I know is what I hear.. as does anyone else, for that is the litmus test.. What we hear… no matter how it measures… and for many I will presume, cost is a consideration.

So too, is the ever lengthening list of devices one must or can or might want to try in their own rig, first hand. It’s expensive and time consuming.

And then there’s this… what if… just think what if… you get a gizmo… and following it’s insertion, you are just ecstatic about it’s performance…. All the “hey this is better” appeals… acclaims… assertions… are as fallow as fallen and withered grain. That person doesn’t care a bit then about any other notions of something else being better… well, definitely not right then.

Let’s not forget either…. Exactly what is better? What’s better truly mean?

Studio recording engineer better? Live performance in a club better? On stage outdoors better? Better meaning more natural? More resolution? More bass?

It can mean anything almost. It’s that subjective. When I’m dealing with subjectivity, price tells me where I can and might tred, and where I will not.

I’ll let my ears tell me what I do like and do not.

We all have our own little worlds we live in, no matter how grandiose, or meager. They are all miniscule and temporal. The aim I think is to enjoy the world you live in as best you can… and all my comments… assertions… advice… thoughts, and so forth point to exactly that, based upon my experience.

I’ve little doubt devices selling for a couple grand might out perform those of lesser cost. It even makes sense. But for right at $500 for the Lynx AES 16E…. I’m pretty happy…

The AES 16 allows for another clock to be added on as well… but guess what Lynx rep said to me about adding on aftermarket upscale clocks …….

He said, “Unless you are adding on (I forget the name) which costs several thousands of dollars, I’d not add one. Even then with this high dollar aftermarket clock, the gain is going to be quite marginal.” Indicating to me numbers like 10% or 15% improvements.

Perhaps Steve, you should have said something sooner… or others should have said something sooner on that topic. I asked. A lot. But no one chimed in and mentioned a similarly priced item which you make as a solution.

In fact the overwhelming input unsaid, but seen in the virtual systems and signatures of posters was the Lynx device… not an Empirical Audio unit.

Why? I don’t know. Price probably. Add on’s perhaps. Bandwidth? Beats me. Time will come maybe… and I’ll give Empirical Audio a shot. But for now, I’m good. there and have other more important and larger, fish to fry elsewhere in my audio world, and my own life in general.

What would interest me in this thread of mine, is a device which totally eliminates the need for a outboard DAC. Something that can improve performace by subtraction… get rid of DACs, preamps… not bust the bank and control/feed some nice active speakers.

Better still IMHO, would be such a unit for my main system which could feed and control vol on amp (s) and be capable of utilizing the whole of the bandwidth… or the like and not be made of too much can’taffordium.

Jim wrote:
"Decent converters? So IYO, where do decent conversion interfaces begin in price? $1K, $2K?"

Probably $800.00 starting point for a USB converter. It's a lot like turntables. You can always buy a cheap one and a less expensive cartridge and get good results. Spectacular results from a turntable and phono stage requires $10K at least, more like $20K. Likewise, about $5-6K for a USB DAC. $1500 for USB converter.

"The Lynx or Hiface EVO, either plug right in, or need just a USB cord.

Given that, well, we’re talking apples and oranges right?"

The Off-Ramp 4 replaces HiFace or EVO and uses virtually identical drivers. Same thing. It comes with a USB cable. Better clocks, power and other features adds cost. Performance costs.

"The AES 16 allows for another clock to be added on as well… but guess what Lynx rep said to me about adding on aftermarket upscale clocks …….

He said, “Unless you are adding on (I forget the name) which costs several thousands of dollars, I’d not add one. Even then with this high dollar aftermarket clock, the gain is going to be quite marginal.” Indicating to me numbers like 10% or 15% improvements."

I agree, adding an expensive work-clock to drive the Lynx is a poor proposition. However, many use the Pace-Car to RECLOCK all kinds of sources, including the Lynx. This is different than just supplying a word-clock with lower jitter to help the clock in the Lynx. The digital signal passes through the Pace-Car and the Pace-Car provides a synchronizing clock to the Lynx. Reclocking establishes a totally new master clock in the Pace-Car. The Lynx clock jitter then becomes unimportant. Pace-Car starts at $1200.00. People are still using it after 7 years on the market, so it must make a significant difference. You can make the clock as good as you can afford. Just like upgrading a turntable cartridge.

"Perhaps Steve, you should have said something sooner… or others should have said something sooner on that topic. I asked. A lot. But no one chimed in and mentioned a similarly priced item which you make as a solution."

Very few of my customers read this forum.

"What would interest me in this thread of mine, is a device which totally eliminates the need for a outboard DAC. Something that can improve performace by subtraction… get rid of DACs, preamps… not bust the bank and control/feed some nice active speakers."

You cannot eliminate the outboard DAC, it is always needed. A high-performance DAC with a built-in preamp function that beats all other preamps is the ticket IMO.

The things that compromise digital system sound quality, in order of importance are:

1) master clock jitter
2) D/A digital filtering distortion
3) D/A active output stage compression
4) Volume control circuit noise and distortion

This is why I addressed all of these in my USB DAC design. Again, to get this kind of performance you are looking at $4k-6K. Performance does not come cheap.

Happy hunting.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio

From someone who's owned Steve's product, along with ridiculously expensive cabling and tried a half dozen DACs in the $1k to $3k price range, the RDac is ridiculously good. For $500. And you don't need a converter with a super duper clock upgrade to get great sound from it.

Not knocking Steve's gear, I did honestly like the Offramp Turbo-3. I'm also glad I got rid of it before he switched to async and the prices bottomed out.

I've never tried a $5k USB DAC by the way Steve, but you'd probably need a $30-$40k system just to do it justice. And I'm not sure you'd grin as much as you would by gambling on a $500 DAC that seems to overperform. The rest of my stuff isn't low-fi but definitely not $30-$40k either.

USB DACs don't suck, by the way Cerrot. They sound just fine.

Hi Steve

... one last Q… and a thought or two

Why do you force a person to choose which word and sampling rates are to be addressed with your components?

Why not allow for all the content from Red Book to DVD Audio to be processed by your converters clock?

Why too, not make a DAC which addresses more than merely USB?

Other digital devices do exist. I’m not blaming you, but in looking for a DAC, lets say, I looked both for build, stability, versatility and voice. Removing other interfaces in the name of gaining performance is lessening flexibility and inherent value. The price too becomes more lofty. And that is indeed your call of course.

BTW...

‘my customers don't read this forum... “

Do they peruse any at all? I posted on a couple others many of the Questions I’ve posted here..

I would take issue with you on how much money it takes someones equipment to make outstanding involving listening sessions. And right there lays the conundrum or maybe the challenge.

Simple high prices alone are less and less orienting the level of SQ. In fact the trend over the past few years is to see excellent performing products for lower costs.

I suppose shiek will always be sheik to some. Albeit, the greater buying dollar resides in less affluent climes. This is a statement from the larger portion of the digital producing industry, and a swelling trend that continues today.

One side of the Lynx clock add-on debate said virtually no greater performance results would be obtained by such an implimentation. Actually, Lynx side said that. You agreed.

The flip side of that debate implies otherwise, saying, "due to the high level of clock tech currently on board, adding an aftermarket clock is money poorly spent." Perhaps even if it is an Empiracal audio clock, huh?

Then that is a good thing! No need to spend more duckets!

for my money,I observe the threshold of diminishing returns. Some. I venture past it now and then. Just as a good brain washed audiophile should keep trying to eek out or capture that added little bit extra. That elusive next wee step up.

When that added littel bit amounts to spending $6K... vs $3K. or $1500 vs 500 - 700... I'll pass. Almost each and every time. I pass because I must financially and as I should philosophically.

For that added 50% more all I get is a rental agreement towards the next, perhaps, version you or any other maker may decide to build, and/or are enabled to build.

spending double for 10% or even 20% mo betta? I pray I never fall prey to my ego, that I'd invest that sort of money into a market which at best returns only 50% on principal... or less. And travels as briskly as does the digital realm.

In the digital kingdom as one poster already underlined... things move fast... and with some luck, he was able to flip his Emperical Audio device prior to a design change took place, lest he lose out dramatically more.

That scenario in no small part was designed by your hand. Maybe you sent out emails to all of your previous clientele of this upcoming release .... I've no idea. I'd have thought you would. I'd have thought any such a move by any maker would have issued such a communicae. Private and better still, public announcements of upcoming releases seem to serve credibility too.

Regardless, the seeming fury with which these changes transpire are by design terms swift. making digital investments still more dodgy a practice.. This year is this... next year is that... So the outlay of $6K is not a singular investment.

Let's not try fooling ourselves or anyone else.

I've been hearing a few of these in truth, high buck outfits of late... Far, far more expensively outfitted than my own... in really nice well tweaked setups. Owned by some very nice people too.

Trust me folks.... living on and a bit beyond the point of diminishing returns, is a very very, nice place indeed to exist. it really is, and in some respects it's better.

The separation between those setups and my own, subjectively speaking is not night and day, however the investment (s) are.

The more I hear of top flight, well done, quite expensive oufits only serves to remined me just how much fun and great sound one can own for just a decent investment…. Overall, maybe in the $20K or better buying a mix of new and pre-owned equipment.. and often, less..

If I could afford to be quite lavish, I'm not so sure I would... well not much more.

Given what I'm hearing and seeing with my own two ears & eyes... or what's left of 'em.

It’ll take in home auditions. First hand trials. Trials of run in kit… not a few days of something that will emerge into something very unlike it’s current sound, later.

Wehn that happens, when that becomes a widespread practice, and all those in a position to make such purchases can inspect for themselves these new bleeding edge entrees du jour, the veil will then be lifted from the high end audio circuit, and it becomes then fact and first hand info, rather than reviews and hype that will fuel purchases. People will stand online to get them at that point.

I suspect not only will their be a huge infusion of integrity, but credibility will soar for the manufacturers. . Who's the boss then will be quite evident... and by how much as then even quantitative assessments will be agreed upon, by & large.

Well maybe no quantitative assessments will be emphatically agreed upon, as no audiophile worth his salt agrees with everyone on everthing. We aren’t allowed, it’s the law don’t you know?

…and that brings me to this… Steve… what is your input here for a great sounding desktop system that won’t break the bank… as the thread requests… ???

Jim wrote:
"Why do you force a person to choose which word and sampling rates are to be addressed with your components?

Why not allow for all the content from Red Book to DVD Audio to be processed by your converters clock?"

I dont understand this question. All of my components can do 44.1-192. All clocks are provided for all of these sample-rates. There are clock upgrades that you can purchase.

"Why too, not make a DAC which addresses more than merely USB?"

I dont understand this question either. My Overdrive has USB, S/PDIF coax and I2S inputs.

"due to the high level of clock tech currently on board, adding an aftermarket clock is money poorly spent." Perhaps even if it is an Empirical audio clock, huh?"

You are missing the point. The clock in the Lynx is designed to be synchronized using an external clock. These types of clocks are high-jitter by definition. Trying to CONTROL this clock to reduce jitter using an expensive external clock is futile. Using an external RECLOCKER with the Lynx is an entirely different thing however. In this case, it makes perfect sense to invest in a good low-jitter clock.

"he was able to flip his Emperical Audio device prior to a design change took place, lest he lose out dramatically more."

This was not just a design change, but a technology change. Most manufacturers made this move because it resulted in much higher perfromance. High-techology digital is disruptive, whether its cell-phones, computers or audio. Have you tried to sell an older cell-phone lately? Before you know it, the market for used iPads will dry up.

"That scenario in no small part was designed by your hand. Maybe you sent out emails to all of your previous clientele of this upcoming release .... I've no idea."

No, you don't. I offered an upgrade path for all Off-Ramp 3 owners to go to Off-Ramp 4. Much of the Off-Ramp 3 is used in the Off-Ramp 4. Only the USB module is upgraded. I try to make all of my products modular so they can be upgraded to the latest technologies at lower cost to my customers. Rather than buying a new Off-Ramp 4 at $799.00, the customer could upgrade from 3-4 for $350.00. I feel that this is good service. Show me another company that does this.

"It’ll take in home auditions. First hand trials. Trials of run in kit…"

I already offer this:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=96058.0

Like many of your other comments, you are making incorrect assumptions about this. You should do a little reading first to see what the real story is.

"Steve… what is your input here for a great sounding desktop system that won’t break the bank… as the thread requests… ???"

Okay, this I can provide:

Wired for Sound DAC2 - $1500.00
Off-Ramp 4 with Turboclock - $1499.00
total under $3K

The Off-Ramp 4/Turboclock replaces the USB input on the W4S and makes this a world-class DAC. Maybe you can even get the W4S DAC2 on Audiogon used for less.

For $4K you can have an Overdrive DAC with the same USB interface built-in and a world-class volume control. You can and will sell your preamp, and you dont need expensive power cables either. The cost saving on the preamp and power cord is at least $1K. The volume control has been compared to $10K+ preamps.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio