Dedicated power lines-getting started

If someone is looking to take credit for the research and design work on these cords and the specific materials being used, i can pretty much state without hesitation that Chris is the originator of said designs and may have received a bit of help or a "few suggestions" from Steve Eddy ( and i think that Chris has stated this publicly ).

Prior to Chris talking about these specific materials for use in power cords, i don't know of anyone that had publicly used or recommended these specific Belden products for use as AC power cords. If anyone had done so, i would say that it "might" have been Jon Risch and his comments "might be" to try the Belden designs in stock form. To be quite honest, i'm not sure about that and i simply included that as i know that Jon is both a BIG fan of Belden products and of Teflon dielectric. As such, it would not have been "impossible" for him to have suggested such a use for these cables. I don't think that Chris has anything to hide and would give credit where credit is due. That is, IF Jon had come up with the idea or helped him out in any way.

With that in mind, the "modified" Belden designs, as far as i know, are the intellectual properties of Chris. Whether or not Chris can claim any type of legal or proprietary rights to these designs is another story. I do know that using someone else's name to sell a product that you make or market would be considered an endorsement and probably require some type of contract to do so. I don't know if Ernie has ever actually labeled these as "parts kits for Chris VH's cables" though.

Having said that, i have mentioned these cords on a few occasions and done so stating that they work in a very positive manner. In doing so, i have included links to Chris' website AND on a few occassions, mentioned that Ernie was selling parts / kits to make these or very similar cords. I never meant to infer that that these were Ernie's designs, only that he did have access to parts for such designs and was offering them in kit form and making them available to the public.

Out of all of this, all i can say is that Chris, Jon Risch and Bob Crump have been VERY kind and helpful by sharing their designs and making them public knowledge. All three have done so without asking for ANY type of compensation for the R&D ( which can eat up a LOT of time, labor and materials ) that went into coming up with the designs that they did. Obviously, there are those that have profited from this "shared" and "public" info with some folks even starting companies to make these products and / or parts available. I know that Kevin was selling Bob Crump's cord, Wayne at Bolder Cables is offering Jon's designs, Steve Rochlin's digital cable and probably some of Chris' too. I'm not sure about that, but i don't doubt it one bit.

Obviously, Ernie has jumped into the ring too, but done so in a different manner. Whereas all of the others have basically listed / given credit to the designers at one point in time, i don't think that Ernie has done so. As such, i can somewhat understand where Chris is coming from, even though he has seen fit to make such designs public domain. So, if "fair is fair" and nobody is worried about payment for design work or someone else making profit off of buying and assembling the parts to further the spread and use of such a design, i can see an easy way out of this whole controversy. I'm not going to spell it out, but it should be pretty obvious to those involved from where i'm sitting. Sean
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Subaruguru, It's baffling why you "have no idea what Belden says about 110v use" (of their 83802, etc.). This must be at least the fourth time I have referenced the reply from Belden tech support in this forum. They say:
"These cables are not designed for use as 110 Volt Power Supply cables. They are listed as "Control and Instrumentation" cables for Fire Alarm and Tray applications."
That means they do not recommend it in-wall from the electrical panel to wall receptacle in residential 110v service. It's unlikely they approve it for cords either, but outside the wall is not the issue. How many audio power cords are UL approved? I do not think the use of a conduit would change their recommendation for in-wall use of 83802, but rather than guessing about it you should email Belden tech support and ask them yourself.

It makes no difference to me other than giving accurate advice to the forum readers. The method of running a ground wire is irrelevant if the cable is not approved in the first place.

Sean thanks for the insightful information.

Ernie, when I write a term paper and/or research paper I make certain I document my research, cite my sources, and give credit where credit is due.

As Shasta stated and Eagle implied: “No matter how "ideal" the 83802 and 83803 might seem for house wiring, the bottom line is that it is most likely NOT approved for a majority of people's house wiring”.
How true that statement is. Belden doesn’t want a lawsuit from someone using their wire for an improper instillation. Even if the Belden 83802 wire works, it’s a risk the homeowner is running in null and voiding their homeowner’s policy in case of a fire (as was mentioned already). Don’t use it for in the wall wiring! Although I have purchased 50’ and installed a dedicated line with the Belden 83802 (Chris VenHaus’s Flavor #1) and a separate ground wire. I did so for comparison purposes only.

I have experimented over the last year with various wires to use for dedicated 20-amp circuits. I have the following wire in use in no special order:
1) 10 gage Romex
2) 10 gage UV
3) Belden 83802
4) Virtual Dynamics 10 gage BX Cryogenically treated with Cryo’d circuit breaker.
To my ears on my revealing system I hear NO difference between (1-4)! I think simply using a dedicated circuit with 10 gage copper makes the biggest difference.

Phew.
Let me see if I can make sense of this....
Firstly, I chose to use Belden 83802 as a 110v delivery cable (dedicated line) well before seeing or hearing of anybody's use or designs! That was over 2 years ago. I thereafter used leftover cable to make PCs. I found Chris' site later on, seeing that he too was using 83802 as a power cable. Small world! So Sean, I certainly didn't need to give credit to ANYBODY but a Belden catalog where I found the largest Teflon-dielectric, shielded, 2-3 conductor cable I could find.

Re the use of Teflon, I had a career in laboratoty instrument manufacture and QA during the 70s and early 80s. The use of various fluorocarbons (including, but not limited to, FEP, PTFE, PVDF et al) because of their low dielectric absorption and chemical inertness. I was intimately involved in R&D of tooling and molding these exotic, expensive plastics. I'm a co-inventor of a common lab tool called the "pipetman". Some of you may have heard of it. "Choosing" a relatively-available FEP dielectric is a no-brainer for me. The choice to use it goes back to the early 70s.

Larry, please! I'm not responsible for ANY uncredited copycating or plagiarism. I have MANY times told enquirers
that the materials in my PCKit can be used to make Chris' published "flavors", if asked specifically, and DO credit him with making public this application. But application it is...not a design. Choosing to use a readily available product for another application doesn't constitute protectable property, or at least it shouldn't. I don't expect to have to thank someone if I too decide to use clothesline to hand a swing!

I really don't understand all the noise around this. Anyone can pick from hundreds of existing cables from several manufacturers and use them for a proscribed, or novel use. Do understand that I am grateful to Bob C and Chris for their suggestion to audiophiles to DIY; I only proide an assembly of parts that allows them to do so. At these VERY low prices it helps to keep our hobby sane.
I also sell a power "box" consisting of a metal box with duplexes and a PC. Is someone about to come out of the woods and claim that was their idea too? I don't mean to belabor this. If the majority of readers feel that I've stepped on Chris' toes, then indeed I'm sorry...it wasn't my intent. I just am getting sick and tired of seeing and hearing about rampant profiteering in this aspect of music-reproduction, and wanted to help others. Chris has told folks how to fish. I'm providing them with VERY inexpensive
fishing gear so they can. I would think the focus here should shift to those who make HUNDREDS of dollars selling each example of asimilar "design", not $10!

Eagle, yes I've heard you. We're all using this cable for 110v use. It's designed for 24v use, as you've informed us.
It's rated to what, 300v and 200C? So 115v use with high rex audio equipment is a novel use. Belden didn't anticipate it, and never provided a tough enough outer jacket to meet in-wall residential use. I think I have this I'm NOT aware that the wire itself is not usable for in-wall 115v use. The problem is a mechanical abrasion one, not an electrical one, I surmise.
I can understand where a Belden rep told you it's not made for 115 residential use. They have to protect themselves from am after-market recommendation that they never sought approval for, etc.
I think it's VERY important to know whether it's technically acceptable to use this stuff inside a protective conduit. When I first discovered it I assumed that it's use as a "plenum" cable without conduit reflected a minimum outer jacket protective performance, not just a high temp rating. I also assumed that such use could involve all voltages approaching its recommendation. Seems yo make sense. What I didn't know is what I suspect is true: that the outer thin Teflon jacket isn't tough enough for unrestricted in-wall residential (ab)use.

My daughter needs the computer. Keep well, and again ,sorry if I've stepped on toes. As I get on in years and contemplate near-retirement work activity I would like to focus more on activity that "gives something back". I think that working part-time for about $10/hr helping like-minded folks enjoy their hobby affordably rather than get taken advantage of by $$$ snake-oil profiteers could be a small part of it. Didn't mean to ruffle feathers. Folks are grateful for my help, as I'm sure they are to Chris, Bob, Albert, Sean, et al.

Good Night.
Ern
PS Chris, please feel to give me a call. 781 483-3922

I feel better now :-)