The plight of SACD....


Venturing into a local Audio Supermarket chain the other day...I found the latest advancement in digital audio relegated to a cheesy Kiosk in the very back of the store...complete with a Bose cube set-up...and the new Stones hybrid of "Got Live If you want it" (a dismal live recording regardless of format) blaring to a very disinterested public...no wonder average Joe aint buyin'...

Even with Sony "dumbing down" SACD/dvd players to the sub $500 level...without the software catalog to support it...and with the majority of the public A)satisfied with current redbook sound and B)not possessing even moderate midfi audio sytems to hear the sonic benefits...it appears SACD is going to be the next DAT commerical failure...ditto for DVD-Audio...these new products are not "market driven"...they are being forced on consumers...

The majority are not audiophiles let alone audio enthusiasts...accurate or improved sonics do not play an important role in their lives...redbook became dominant because its main competitor at the time was not the LP but the pre-recorded cassette...a dreadful format made worse by Dolby B...the Compact Disc won out but any digital format at the time would have...it offered convenience,portability,and eventually...compatability...

As someone who has invested a small amount in a SACD player and software...and was one of the first on my block to have a CD player...I have waited almost 20yrs for a digital
format that gives a hi-end analog system a run for its money...that day is both here and gone...I predict that SACD will remain a fringe format...similiar to DAT...in that
it will live on in professional applications...and have a small loyal following that truly appreciates its greatness...heres to hoping Im wrong...
128x128phasecorrect
I've tried both SACD and DVD-A player/systems.

I feel DVD-A is closer to analog with a great sense of dynamic range.

I haven't tried or am I interested in the multichannel ability of either format.

My local Borders doesn't stock a sinle disk in either format. Unless there a major increase in available,both formats will fade into the sunset like surround sound SQ and CD4.

Hi Troglodyt let's analize your post...

Have fun with 16/44.1.(let's start my rant with some sarcasm)

"You already got the best you're gonna get. The joke was played 22 years ago. Alot fell for it, and some didn't. I didn't think the joke was funny in 1981, and I don't think it's funny now."(Preaching to the ignorant masses)

"The fact is, you wanted your "Perfect sound forever", and you got it(?). You scorned the vinyl world, and embraced the digital devil. Now you have to live with it."
YOU know the future and have a disdain for people who embrace technological change)

"Just how many times oversampling will it take to convince you that it just isn't going to happen? Oversampling, upsampling, downsampling, interpolation, no upsampling, jitter reducers, digital lenses, 1-bit, 20 bit, 24 bit, DSD, tube dacs, green pens, Buddhist chants. It just is not going to happen, folks. Time to wake up from the bad dream."
(Our Saviour Twl)

"I know this is hard medicine, but what do you think us vinyl guys have been having to swallow for over 20 years? We've watched all the music dry up, and go to digital formats. We've seen cost increases and less selection of our analog gear. We've borne the brunt of scorn from our fellow audiophiles. It hasn't been easy for us, but we've kept the vinyl flame alive for all of you, so that when this point came, there would be somewhere to go. If we hadn't done that, there would be no analog refuge from this digital crap-storm."
(Oh poor me ,I can claim poverty and intellectual superiority all at the same time )

IF YOU PROVOKE EXPECT A MIRRORED RESPONSE.
You guys are too funny. You all sit hear arguing about a sixty year old technology like it's the latest coming and ignore the obvious regarding digital. Digital has come a long way and SACD will bring it even further, but that is not the issue at all.
Sony/Phillips receives a royalty for every cd made. This has accounted for some good profit for Sony and Phillips, but now at the end of twenty years the royalty is ending. SACD achieves two things that have nothing to do with mass market tastes or hi-res listening. First it copyrights the material so that it can not be pirated to mp3 or other copy systems. Secondly it allows them to sell the technology to other companies so they can receive a new flood of royalties for the next twenty years. This is mighty simple stuff guys, so for all your trashing of Sony for there stupidity of bringing out a new format, it's Sony who reads this stuff and laughs at your ignorance. It's the money! Sony/ Phillips gets some, the record labels get the bulk. DVD-A does not work to protect the information, SACD does. Great wonder every major label is now looking hard at SACD.
Lucky for all of us the new digital format sounds better than the old one. It seams that every day a new label jumps in with a promise to support SACD. Universal with it's 100-200 releases this year is a very good indicator of where SACD is heading. As far as price, the newest singly layer SACD only disks are $14.95 at Music Direct. Last time I checked that was $1.00 over the regular priced "redbook" at Best Buy. Now you can certainly continue to buy your used Iron Butterfly vinyl for $2.00 (which is more than it's worth) and believe you discovered the true meaning of audio, but remember, most of us have been there and done that, twice. Digital will remain the answer for most, just because we don't respond to every post hear doesn't mean we are not here, laughing at your pursuit for perfect sound. If you happen to be buying newly re-mastered 180 gram pressing at $30.00 - 45.00 a piece your selection is more limited than mine and mine is growing, your is...... a fad.
As for feeling sorry for me "the early bird" well don't. I've had three plus years of enjoyment listening to the best sound my system has ever produced. My prediction, five years from now you will not be able to buy a 16 bit cd, a "redbook" only cd player. It will be universal machines with all new material released in SACD only format.
Jadem6 ... I hope you're right, but the biggest difference between SACD and redbook CD is that the consumer DOES NOT WANT SACD. It has no benefits and several drawbacks. For the average consumer rebook CD was a giant step forward compared to LPs.
It is for this reason that I am skeptical of the success of SACD. Your argument against DVD-a is very interesting, though, and I think you're right on that one.

The copy-protection issue is interesting as I, for one, don't care if the source is copy protected, so long as it doesn't affect the sound quality. If I make a copy for the care I don't care if the copy has to go to the analogue domain and back to the digital domain with inherent losses, since a car is not an audiophile environment. Neither is the CD walkman. I'm a bit at a loss why so many of us jump up and down at copy protection, when to me it seems to be a bit of a non-issue.
Okay Joe, point taken. Fair is fair. But you missed my point. I am not trying to be the "Saviour". It doesn't matter to me if people stay with digital, because most will. I can use what I want, and am not directly affected by these digital format wars. I am making a point that other people don't have to be subjected to this format war nonsense, if they don't want to be.

This copy protection thing is going to happen. The music industry is determined to make it happen. They have publicly stated that they will make it happen. They have petitioned the government to make it happen. They also are the same people(Sony/Philips) that own most of the major music producing companies, and own the patents on the CD and SACD digital formats. They will make what is going to be sold in the stores, either directly or by licence agreement with other manufacturers. It will be copy protected.

Now some people would rather not go along with this, and they are not necessarily backward thinkers. Maybe they can avoid this whole obsolescence thing by using something that is already considered "obsolete" by everyone except the highest of the high end audiophiles. Whether you agree, or like it, or not, the top of the high-end is dominated by turntable systems. This is not because these people want to "revel in anachronism". It is because these people have realized that the technological progress has not led to sonic progress over previously available media. It is not my doing. But I certainly see it. And hear it. So I simply point out that a person could avoid all this format war stuff, and get better sound at the same time, by going analog.

Now you may not feel that analog is better sounding than digital, but I assure you that the top end of the audiophile segment does not agree with you on that point. The top layer is analog, and has always been analog. Unless digital advances further than it has, the top layer will remain analog. I remind you of the constantly recurring posts on this forum that refer to "how can I make my digital system sound more like analog?", or "what is the most analog sounding digital player?",or "can adding a tube dac smooth out my digital source?" or references like,"this mod made my CD player sound almost like analog",etc, etc. When was the last time you read a post asking "how can I make my turntable sound more digital?". Please.

I am not making this up. It is real. I can't help it that some people do not want to accept this. That is out of my hands. I am simply stating that there is another way that some may find more acceptable, for several reasons, now that this format thing is happening. For those that want to stay with the digital thing, fine. Nothing is stopping you. But it seems that there is a very touchy point that causes outcry, when people are urged to try a different route than the ones the majority are traveling. Perhaps it makes the majority nervous, that some may not think like them.

The fact is that analog exists, and it is a viable format for listening to music. I am regularly reminded of what a no-no it is to recommend something out of the mainstream. But the very best of anything is never found in the mainstream. If you want the best, you have to look outside the mainstream. This format war has presented an opportunity for people to look at other options for advancing the quality of their audio systems. I suggest analog. Is this a violation of the "digital law" and now I have the "digital police" after me?

Every time I have mentioned that digital cannot compete sonically with analog, I have had somebody try to shut me up. Well, it ain't gonna happen. I am as entitled to my opinion as any of the rest of you. And I can promote my ideas here and elsewhere anytime I want.

Did I try to make a big deal about it when some of those above, like Tweekerman, said they like CD over analog? No. Do I make a point of trying to minimize people who think digital is better. No. I have to deal with that every day on this forum. It is the mainstream thinking. But I do state what I consider to be a fact, that on an ultimate scale, analog is better sounding than digital. Any available form of digital. I don't require that anyone agree with me. But it seems that some digital people want to require that I agree with them.

Look, I can sum it up this way. Digital is a sampled representation of what? Analog. It is generally conceded that higher sampling rates will better simulate what? Analog. The perfect digital representation would be what? Analog. If we could have the perfect digital format, IT WOULD BE ANALOG. What more do I need to say? I've wasted too much time on this already.