Need some wisdom comparing planars

Hello Timwat

My advise would be to get a pair of used ESL-63, and use them with a 50-100 watt tube amplifier (ARC, C-J, SF, BAT, JJ etc.) and some Argento wire(breathtaking wire).
Quad is the mother of all ESLs and are in some ways stil a leading design. People think they can't make bass but that is only if they havn't heard them with the right amp and correctly set up (that can be said about all planars). The one driver sound of them are without match and the price of a used pair are very low, seen in the light of the performance.
As fare as amplifiers goes, I think the new JJ 828 and JJ 322 offers fantastic value.
The JJ and Quad will sing when spun together with silver wire from Argento.
I have just upgraded from the standard silver from Argento to the VDM model and it stil has me wondering what makes people buy other brands. I guess they are simply a well kept secret.

Check out the goods at the following web-pages:

http://www.quad-hifi.co.uk/
http://www.eurotubes.com/euro-f.htm
http://www.argento.dk
http://www.euronet.nl/users/temagm/audio/esl63.htm
http://www.audiophilia.com/hardware/quads.htm
http://www.audioreview.com/reviews/Speaker/product_8280.shtml

I hope this helps

Ulrikgm

I owned a pair of Magnepan 3.3r's for a couple of years. Talk about a love/hate relationship! They were the best sounding, most impressive audio product I've ever owned. They were always better sounding with each upgrade I made upstream. I'm looking for a used pair of 3.6's right now - (there's NO Magnepan dealer in Arizona)....
Since I sold them I've heard Martin Logan, Sound Lab, & most recently the new Quads. All these others sound like my 3.3's with a sheet or blanket draped over them. I've been spoiled by that Magneplanar Ribbon!
I sold my 3.3's because they had an electronic artifact that I could reduce, but not get rid of. All the reviews I've read on the 3.6r say this has been almost eliminated. I've already purchased an Adcom GFP750 & Aragon 4004MKII for my next Magnepan system. If the amp is not good enough, I'll upgrade to a Pass Labs X250 or whatever it takes!
Be warned, if you get the 3.6r's you'll contract the upgrade disease & end up searching for better & better upstream components!

Good Luck!

asylum at www.audioasylum.com if you haven't already - here you will find maggie/planar/stat fans who can enlighten you or maybe confuse you even more!

Greetings Timwat -

So you are a musician and have fallen in love with Maggie 3.6's! I'm not surprised. The Maggies do timbre very well, and don't impose any distracting boxiness on the sound.

I'm not a Maggie dealer, but... You asked about the Maggie 1.6. In my opinion, the Maggie 1.6 OWNS its price range. The 3.6 has some competition, as does the 20 (or 20.1), but the Maggie 1.6 has none. It is economically impossible to build a commercial box speaker in that price range that doesn't sound like a box speaker.

Okay if I muddy the waters a wee bit? In the price range of the Maggie 3.6, you can find used Sound Lab speakers. The Sound Labs are full range electrostats that excel at timbre and nuance. I have owned Maggie 3.6's and compared them side-by-side to Sound Labs. Now, I'm a Sound Lab dealer, so take that into consideration.

Let me tell you about three auditions I gave to musicians. One was a harpist, one a drummer, one a concert violinist. The harpist and drummer had taken vows of poverty, and so were not potential customers. When I put on a good recording, the harpist immediately sat forward in her seat and started playing "air harp", while excitedly explaining the technique the artist was using to get a certain sound from the strings. When I put on a drum solo cut for the drummer, she (yes, "she") likewise sat forward and started describing the techniques being used. The concert violinist was a potential customer and brought his own recordings, and he told me that the Sound Labs were the first speakers he's heard convincingly reproduce not only to violin, but also to cello and double bass. He bought a pair. Incidentally his other speakers, which he said were up until then the only ones he's heard reproduce violin correctly, were the original Quad ESL's (the "57's").

My point is, if you have a chance to pick up a pair of used Sound Labs, give them serious consideration. One thing, though - they must be shipped in factory crates. If you find a pair you're interested in, get the serial numbers and run them by me. I'll find out what I can on them for you.

One final anecdote - a few years ago I got to hear a local pianist, Seth Kaufman, in concert on several occasions. When I bought a recording of his and played it over the Sound Labs, I could tell it was made on the same Yamaha grand piano. The next time I saw him I asked, and he confimed that he'd had his Yamaha shipped out to Los Angeles to do the recording.

I have a soft spot in my heart for musicians - you are the reason we're in this hobby. Most of you have taken a vow of poverty. And, frankly, many musicians hold home audio equipment in disdain, never having heard a really good system - but you have seen the light! And so we all enthusiastically welcome you to our little world!

Thanks for the kind words, Tim.

I too LOVE the sound of a stand-up bass on omni speakers. While i'm currently not using planars or stat's, i do have speakers that appear to be "boxless" in terms of sonics and imagery. The sound is so "there" and "wet" with the correct timbre that it gives you goose bumps and just draws you into the performance.

Ne1sjay had a good idea ( in some ways ). Limiting yourself to things that you CAN work with in terms of affordability and room placement CAN make life a lot simpler and narrow down your choices. Personally, i like to dream and then acquire : )

You already seem to have taken into consideration the pitfalls of planar's. No real deep bass ( but hey, the $37,000 Krell's don't have it either), limited volume capability, the need for a healthy / sturdy amp, etc... No need to go there again. I will remind you about room placement though. These work best slightly spread apart but with ample room on all sides and some attention to room treatments. If you can't get them out into the room ( probably well into the "traffic area" ), you'll never get optimum results.

As to your other options such as Martin Logan's, etc... i have to agree. The models that i recently heard ( just like you, can't remember the model ) sounded pretty poor. While i KNOW the installation was FAR from optimum, i couldn't believe just how bad they sounded. Not only was the top end NOT open, the bass was bloated and "thuddy". If someone from M/L is reading this, you BETTER start dropping in on your dealers to see how badly they are killing your product.

With that in mind, i would look at the 1.6's and subs rather than the bigger 3.6's running solo. This will make placement a LITTLE easier for the panels while increasing the speakers versatility for your specific listening tastes and habits. By running the subs, you'll not feel the need to crank it up as much simply because the sound will be MUCH fuller at lower levels. Dynamic range and maximum sustained SPL can be increased due to the panels not having to make long excursions to cover the extreme bottom end. That is, IF crossed over before the amplifier. This can be done either actively or passively without a lot of fuss.

No first hand experience with what subs would work best here, so i would have to divert you to someone else. General consensus is that the Rel's seem to work good with "panels". You might also look for something with a small woofer ( 8" or so ) that is in a transmission line or larger woofer ( 10" or 12" ) in a sealed low Q design. All of the above would offer the very tight, clean and quick bass that you're looking for.

RGD's suggestion of popping over to the Planar Asylum is also a good suggestion. Just don't forget us back here : ) Sean
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