35Hz - 25kHz -- A Partial 'Purist'?

Stehno your thread ties in with 2 recent threads on "the sub problem"...if you take a look at the posts there seems to be 2 camps...Tireguy's post sums up the other point of view...my friend has the REL STORM 111 (like $1500) he said he can't find the proper intergration with his B&W 802's...yes it has an internal amp...which some folks say is not the best way...i'm looking into the new line of subs from FOCAL called UTOPIA 11WX 13WX 15WX...the construction looks STUNNING!!!...i'm looking for a sub that offers a soft subtle intergrated bass...in other words like Tireguy i don't want to hear the monitor AND the sub...if there is too much of a seam i'll do without

I am firmly in the full-range camp and use a REL Stadium III. I think a lot of people simply do not take the time to fully optimize the sub, which involves at least five major simultaneous variables: (1) room placement, (2) crossover point, (3) crossover slope, (4) sub output level, and (5) phasing. This is an extraordinary challenge that is beyond the desire of many (and the capability of some) to solve. I'm not trying to insult anyone, it's just that I think most people aren't willing to put out the effort to get it right. (Heck, even mine isn't fully optimized, due to home decorating issues...) But when you finally DO get it right, there is simply no comparison at all. And then you find that listening to a non-full-range system is just no longer satisfying. So like many things in high-end audio, it's both a blessing and a curse.:)

One other comment, which is not generally considered in these discussions: The combination of a high-quality monitor and an excellent sub, when set up properly, will almost always outperform a single large speaker system in a given room. (Caveat: any crossover point over 50Hz is too high to ever integrate seamlessly, so forget about tiny monitors that roll off at 80Hz.) This is due to the extraordinary flexibility of the sub/sat system in taming room modes in the bass while allowing for optimizing placement for midrange smoothness and imaging qualities. Yes, you can occasionally buy a full-range speaker and find a room placement which optimizes both imaging and the bass range (not to mention spousal aesthetic issues), but it is quite difficult, maybe even rare, and much more of a lottery than many people will admit. While the sub/sat system is not perfect either, it at least gives a much higher chance of actually achieving an overall optimum in the real world.

P.S. I would agree, I've never in my life heard an 18" cone that could keep pace musically. There's a reason RELs use 10" cones, even on their biggest subs.

Tweekerman: The REL Storm III is not a good match for the N802. The N802 is in another (higher) class than the Storm. Won't make much of a difference. I am not surprised he did not like it. But instead of giving up he needs to think higher.

Your friend needs to consider at the very least the REL Stadium III or even better the REL Stentor III. The Storm III is fine for the B&W N804, N805, CDM Series, or the Matrix 804 and 805.

I love my REL Sub. Would never go without one again.

Wonder of wonders! I would actually consider an active crossover and sub, with dedicated amp if, and this is a VERY big "if", I could seamlessly integrate it low enough to keep it out of the lower mids. I know that this departs from my normal philosophy, but for those who really have to have that rock bottom response, this arrangement could work if they could do it within the parameters I described.

Karls, then you haven't heard the Bag End Infra-sub 18 inch subwoofer. Very musical and very tight. Almost too tight if you can believe that. I demo'ed the Bag End for a few weeks and was very impressed. I stepped down a notch musically and went with a Triad Platinum 18 inch sub because it had more flexible dial-in capabilities. But still quite musical.

But, yes, I have an idea what you are saying because most subs under $2k are sloppy and woolly and have little or no definition to them regardless of size. That's why I always use the term musical when I talk about a good or better sub.

I own a pair of Aerial Acoustic 10T's which are an outstanding full-range speaker for the money. But even they only go down to about 25Hz. My Triad Platinum 18 inch subwoofer is quite musical and successfully reproduces down to at least 18Hz. This subwoofer simply supplements the 10T's to a very nice degree. Is it a perfect marriage? I doubt it, but it comes close.

Personally, in my current price range of $1k to $2k, I stay away from all 8", 10", and even 12" inch subs. Why? Because some to many at this size will typically peter out at 30Hz or 25Hz which means they are not really subwoofers in the first place. And at the this price break, there are very few 10 inch quality drivers that can handle the 20Hz regions without breaking up and overextending, congesting, etc..

At the $4k price range and up, the small driver size is less of a concern.

I'm kinda' anxious to get ahold of the Aerial Acoustic SW12 12 inch sub to hear how that sounds.