Round Two: Best Speakers for LOUD music and rock??


Hi:

ROUND TWO, here we go.......

I listen to mostly rock, classic rock, female vocals, and the occasional dramatic symphony or opera, VERY LOUDLY.

I posted here before, and, taking everyone's comments into account, I purchased a used set of Genesis Vs.

They are great speakers, but failed for me in three critical areas: One, they seem to cause my amps to shut down at much lower volume than my present NHT 3.3s (even though the Genesis are rated as 3dB higher efficiency -- 90dB/4 ohms, as opposed to 87dB/4 ohms for the 3.3s), two, I cannot successfully couple these speakers to my room in such a way as to make the bass taut, dynamic and authoritative, and three, they do not image, in my room, as well as the 3.3s. Not even close.

My main system now consists of:

NHT 3.3s,
NHT SubTwo Subwoofer (60Hz & below only)
Cary 306/200 CD Player,
Sony XA 777es SACD player,
BAT VK5i preamp,
Audio Research M300mkII tube monoblocks,
MIT 750 Shotgun Tube Biwires,
MIT 350 Twin 30' ICs,
AudioZen Silver mkII I/Cs for front end.

I have a LARGE listening room with lots of glass & high sloping ceilings, app. 20x40 ft. w/18' ceilings.

I want to try again to upgrade my speakers, and I am considering a used pair of either Dunlavy SC-Vs, JM Mezzo Utopias, Legacy Focus, VMPS, Montana XP, Revel Ultima Studios, etc., etc.

My system is a tad bright right now, but not objectionably so. The imaging is stellar, and the soundstage depth is good, not great. I want smooth, rich, warm sound, yet detailed and clear, and as I said, I listen at VERY loud volumes for extended periods of time. I MUST have the slam and tight, low bass needed for the type of music I listen to.

Because of the size of speakers involved, I will obviously not be able to hear them with my system 'til I buy them, but, I guess I can just buy a good used pair here on Audiogon & sell them and try another pair if I need to.

Any comments/suggestions?

Thanks - Jeff
jeffj
Hi, Jeff:

While it is certainly not my personal business, and I mean no disrespect to you, I must urge you to use caution about the volume levels you are apparently using when listening. There is substantial research evidence that shows you will sustain permanent hearing loss, often at an early age, by listening at high sound pressure levels. (As an interesting aside, Richard Vandersteen includes a note with all his speakers regarding the problem of premature hearing loss due to exposure to high sound pressure levels.)

As a rule of thumb, if you listen to music at an average level (not occasional peaks) of 90 db or higher, you are almost certainly contributing to your own early hearing loss. Unlike other organs that return to normal over time, damaged hearing does NOT get better -- only worse.

That said, and given your music tastes, your AR mono amps ought to have more than enough juice to drive a wide variety of speakers. If speaker efficiency is an issue due to the size of your room, you might consider one of the top speaker models from Coincident Technology (http://www.coincidentspeaker.com/), Montana (http://www.montanaloudspeakers.com/montana/) or VMPS (http://www.vmpsaudio.com/index.htm), or perhaps one of the better horn-based systems such as the Avantgarde Uno or Duo (http://www.avantgarde-usa.com/home.html).

You may also want to consider getting one or two good subwoofers to handle the deep bass. Getting a lot of slam and tight bass is a tall order for just the main speakers, even from moderately expensive ones (say, up to $10K).

One of the best overall speakers at around the $10k level is the Vandersteen Model 5, which has an excellent built-in proprietary subwoofer with its own 400 watt amp. The Model 5 is a superbly musical speaker, but is not ideally suited to sustained listening at very high volume levels. You may find, however, that having really outstanding speakers that reproduce sound accurately makes it more enjoyable to listen at lower volume levels.

I don't mean for any of this to sound "preachy", but it concerns me when I hear music lovers/audiophiles talking about listening at volume levels that almost certainly will cause incremental hearing damage. Men usually begin to experience hearing loss much sooner than women because we expose ourselves to loud sounds much more frequently, but we are also at risk simply due to biology (too complicated to go into here, but it has to do with the effects of male hormones).

Before you make a final decision on which speakers to buy, you should try to audition them in your own home, and make a point to crank the sound down to see which speakers perform best for you. If you really love music, then you may want to ensure that you will be continue to hear it as you get older.
I must be missing the point here completely. Sounds as if you are desiring live performance levels but with high end imaging, depth and they just do not exist together. When was the last time you attended a 'Tower of Power' concert and got imaging and tight sound staging.

I would build this system entirely differently with say Hafler DH-500s and Klipsch Horns which would play loudly enough to break glass.....literally! Tubes are not meant for this style of playback. Good luck sir.
Jeff: Out of the speakers that you listed, the Dunlavy's will be the closest to your NHT's but with a lot more "finesse" and "refinement" with much greater potential for volume. Other than that, the newer Legacy Focus 20/20 and the Montana's will probably do what you want them to do. VMPS speakers have a history of being kinda "fat & bloated" on the bottom end ( this may have changed ) and i don't think that the Revel's would be great R&R speakers. As to the JM Lab's, they definitely have a "house sound" and it would be up to you as to whether or not you liked them.

Scott: Personally, i think that Richard Vandersteen tries to discourage high listening levels for several reasons. First of all, his speakers will not play "THUNDEROUSLY LOUD". They simply aren't designed for it and you can tell when you try driving them hard. Second, he won't have as many warranty claims if his speakers are treated "gently". This keeps his customers happy as the speakers appear to be more reliable AND maintains a high profit margin since the cost of replacing drivers under warranty is reduced. Third, his cautions about high spl's make him come across as a concerned manufacturer and someone that wants you to be able to enjoy your equipment and his speakers for a long time to come.

When i talked to Richard and asked him about the SPL capabilities and power handling of his speakers, primarily the 5 but all of them in general, he would not quote figures. When i pressed him for greater detail with some specific conditions / figures, he about blew up and asked if i was "insane". The reason that i brought it up is that i was concerned with over-driving the woofer amp in the Vandy 5's. Given the conditions that i mentioned, he told me that i would. At least he's honest. If you've ever talked to Richard, you would know he's "too" honest at times : )

Other than that, i like Vandy's. They just aren't made to raise the roof and Richard will tell you that himself. Sean
>
could you explain exactly what happens when you say your 300 amplifiers shut down? can not believe they are running out of power. Do you have dedicated circuits for the amplifier s
Jeff,

You might want to give the Infinity Prelude MTS series
a listen. I have the baby brothers and they rock very
well. I do have them teamed up with a sub (the model i
have doesnt have sub built in) and I have been very impressed with them. I also listen to mostly heavy rock... Tool.. Alice n chains.. ect @ VERY LOUD levels. I am a guitar player for 25 years and its just in my blood.
Im also pretty aware of what the music should sound like
and the Infinity's do a very good job re-creating.
I know (for what its worth) the MTS series did earn a class A in Stereophile. They also have active subs built in... i believe 750w? Im not sure. They also have the bass tweak rambass system. I can guarantee you they will be very revealing and do well under extreme conditions...

Sdcampbell... Can you speak up i cant hear you??? Just
kidding i appreciate your concern.