Room Treatments added, with negative effects..

Great to know that you have it all figured out Sumitav. Precedence effect notwithstanding, I maintain my position that anyone who does not believe that room acoustics is, to steal a line from our good friends at Ford, Job One, is sadly mistaken. Your initial short post seems to clearly indicate that some people listen to the room and some to the speakers. Hogwash! Any speaker designer who does not take into consideration that a speaker will be used in a room should go back to the drawing board. Insofar as the original post is concerned, clearly the room treatment used does not satisfy Outlier. Many posters have suggested what they consider will improve the situation. Your near field suggestion is valid to a certain extent. Your suggestion that it is a panacea and precludes taking care of room acoustics is another case of throwing out the baby with the bathwater. As far as your Bose comment, I will not dignify it with any of my own, except to say that it has to be cheapest way to get a pop on sites such as these. My last recommendation would be to go with the room placement suggested by the manufacturer. Thinking ahead, properly implemented mc systems should, hopefully, cure many of these collapsed sound staging situations.

In case you thought my response to Pbb was just to him, i have pasted my response to you in a seperate post.

I am rather familiar with your speakers and the designer. I concur with much of his design philosophy and set up parameters.

The Audio Physic Virgo is a speaker designed by Joachim Gerhard who is a master at soundstage and imaging.

Your speakers should create a well developed soundstage and sonic images. They should virtually "disappear".

The Designer suggest that you listen nearfield (6' is his suggestion which is "very" nearfield) and "if possible" set the speakers up on the "long wall" so that you have no sidewall reflections.

Both of these suggestions will reduce room interaction and reflection as I suggested.

Gerhard also suggests sitting rather close to the rear wall (which I might have reservations about unless you treat the rear wall) but the 2 feet he suggests will probably be fine.

Below is an exact quote of the Designers set up prefernces fo this speaker:

Gerhard's ideal setup is you against the long wall (room permitting), speakers 8' apart and 6' from the listener. This way the speaker is closer to you than it is to any wall: the first thing you hear is the speaker, not the room—thus, the room is effectively taken out of the equation. The only wall in play is behind you and closer than 2', so it's effectively out of play.

Try the desingers suggestions and see if it helps. If you want to read more about set up of your particular speaker, look here

http://www.stereophile.com/showarchives.cgi?147:3

All the best and sorry about the insolence.

Pbb,

I did not say that nearfeild was a panacea for anything. I said that it along with proper treatment will offer the best reduction of room interference.

You on the other hand say that unless you wear the speakers as headphones nearfield is a waste of time.

Then you obfuscate with some dazzling "speed of sound" questioning which clearly demonstrates your lack of knowledge.

There is nothing I have written that says I don't beleive in room acoustics, but in "real life" the problem of room interaction and direct sound needs be approached from both directions. Just like an aging attorney to "try" and adjust the contention.

If you remember correctly the poster already had begun room treatment and it was not totally successfull. My suggestion to go nearfield was perfectly logical and did not eliminate additional room treatment if nessessary.

It was quite obvious you just wanted to see your contentious response as an authority in print.

Your assertion that a speaker designer "must" consider that his product is going to be used in a room is a lesson in the obvious, but no designer can design a speaker to work in "all" rooms. There is no "drawing board" or speaker that "fits all" by design.

Now to Outlier - The Audio Physic Virgo is a speaker designed by Joachim Gerhard who is a master at soundstage and imaging.

Your speakers should create a well developed soundstage and sonic images. They should virtually "disappear".

The Designer suggest that you listen nearfield and "if possible" set the speakers up on the "long wall" so that you have no sidewall reflections.

Both of these suggestions will reduce room interaction and reflection.

The Gerhard also suggests sitting rather close to the rear wall (which I might have reservations about unless you treat the rear wall) but the 2 feet he suggests will probably be fine.

Below is an exact quote of the Designers set up prefernces fo this speaker:

Gerhard's ideal setup is you against the long wall (room permitting), speakers 8' apart and 6' from the listener. This way the speaker is closer to you than it is to any wall: the first thing you hear is the speaker, not the room—thus, the room is effectively taken out of the equation. The only wall in play is behind you and closer than 2', so it's effectively out of play.

So Pbb, yes I do have it figured out since this is also generally one of my set up goals.

And to Outlier, try the desingers suggestions and see if it helps. If you want to read more about set up, look here

http://www.stereophile.com/showarchives.cgi?147:3

Summitav, I owe a debt of gratitude to you for allowing me to understand the precedence "affect". I went to the Audio Physic's site and boy is my German rusty! Thank God I found a link to the US distributor's site were I learned the following about this phenomena:

"This intelligent approach to acoustic perception is the reason why, in former times, we were able to run in the opposite direction from a sabretooth (sic) tiger, in the middle of a thick forest with many reflections rebounding from trees."

We wouldn't be around now to talk about this were it not for that "affect".

BTW I have been called worst things than an "aging attorney", which is quite factual I might add.

I hope you and the original poster enjoy your respective systems and AP speakers.

Maybe this issue of whether near field listening making room integration of speakers so much easier should be the object of its own thread. I leave that up to you since you seem to have a way with words and have given me reason to believe you are a member of MENSA and could present the question in a very credible way. With all due respect, I remain, an aging attorney.

Nearfield listening is avoidance of the inherent in room acoustic problems and blinds the listener to the boundary limits of the recorded soundstage. Tom