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Proac 2.5's-something not quite right- ideas?

Ok Audiogoners I've just recently required a pair of Proac Response 2.5's.
My system is Ayre CX-7,Ayre AX-7-using custom made balanced interconnect (tried Cardas Golden Ref.happy with this)and Vantage Marina Speaker cable(bi-wire)-my old speakers were Proac Studio 150's.
My sound before was excellent-worked with my wide musical tastes,subtle and detailed when required and enough oomph when playing Rock or Electronica.
Typically I though my speakers were the weak link and have always wanted to hear/own 2.5's.

What I am hearing with the 2.5's is a jump in scale of presentation and more air/detail around instruments,on certain recordings it sounds really great on others something is missing,the smoothness and clarity I associate with the Proac sound.
The second problem is the scale of the bass,it may just take adjusting to and whilst it doesn't sound overpowering in terms of the overall recording (vocals/details etc. are still there)it really does seem too much for home listening-more like a gig or club experience.
If I put the 150's back in,the bottom line is they sound more musical overall.

I don't believe it's my room which is large-18 feet wide by some 30 plus feet long-I have 3m high ceiling -whilst speaker placement makes a slight difference (I've been messing about with that)it is not a major influence on the general effects.
I've also tried ceramic tiles on my carpet with the speakers on top-again not a major difference.
Everything in my system has been checked-the speakers are set up per instruction and the replacement effect of the 150's proves nothing is amiss imho.

I have several theories as to what might be wrong-the only previous owner only listened to Jazz and Classical and not at as loud levels as I do-the speakers have not been used in the last two years.
So if run in/break in is a factor (I've only got about 8 hours on them)can I expect the missing resolution to come into focus?
Can I expect the bass driver to change?- since perhaps it has never been fully tested with fast/deep modern bass.
Does my increased listening volume mean more break in was required anyway?

My biggest fear is the scale of the 2.5's is not to my taste and that they are so revealing that I am hearing a grain in some recordings that I didn't hear before.

I've read enough about these speakers to know some how I'm not getting what I should and I instictively know on many of the tracks and CD's I'm playing that I am not getting the enjoyment I was before despite some more space and detail.

Thoughts?
ben_campbell
mcrheist
130 posts
 
Ben,

I recently acquired a demo Ayre AX-7 to match the existing Ayre CX-7 in our system, replacing a LFD Mistral integrated amp in a dedicated 2-channel audio setup. In addition, I am upgrading speakers from Proac Tablette 50 Signature monitors (one of the best bookshelf speakers I have ever heard...in my opinion, far superior to the 1SCs) to the new Proac Response D15 floorstanding speakers. One thing I have discovered as I have transitioned the AX-7 into my system and demoed the D15s, the Ayre/Proac setup is significantly impacted by interconnects and speaker cable. I would encourage you to call someone at Ayre (Michael is a great resource there...as well as Charles Hansen) and see what they suggest. Your solution might be as simple as switching out interconnects and speaker cable. The Cardas Cross balanced interconnect (running balanced from AX-7 to CX-7) have produced excellent sonic results in my system. I am currently auditioning speaker cable and have been impressed with the results from the Audioquest CV-4 + DBS. In addition, I plan to demo speaker cable from Tara Labs, as well as probably a few more cables in the next few weeks.

Good luck and keep us informed on how you resolve this issue with your system. The 2.5s are marvelous but tend to be finicky to room placement and associated gear/cables.
ben_campbell OP
1,169 posts
 
Some interesting theories-I'll list them all here since some have been mailed off list and this info. may be of use now and in the future to others.

1.STUDIO SERIES Vs RESPONSE-one Audiogoner auditioned the Studio 200's against the 2.5's and preferred the Studio's.
He found them warmer-I can relate to that to an extent but I still hear a grain in some recordings I wouldn't expect with Proacs although the 2.5's sound fantastic on some recordings (primarily acoustic jazz,vocals etc)they are not at this stage as robust or enjoyable as the 150's.
It could well just be a matter of taste.

2.BREAK IN-again I've had the advice that lying cold so long the speakers simply need broken in again-I truly hope it is this one although my flat does not lend itself to the usual reverse polarity/duvet blasting it out method.
I'll need to be patient something I'm not known for.

3.PLACEMENT-my set up is perhaps not ideal however I've tried really given the Proac's room to breathe and not found a major difference-I'll try again and get back with the info.

4.CABLING-my set up before really didn't show major difference on interconnects-my Vantage speaker cables were certainly better than the Audioquest Midnight 3 I had before.
Perhaps not my system is more prone to be affected by this-I'll try to experiment here.

5.CINEMATIC SYSTEMS THEORY-I can relate to his theory on the choice of tube amplification to temper the thump as he calls it.Whilst the DIY project may well have thrown up some great info-this is not a route for me personally-it'll simply be easier to go back to the 150's.

Anyway away for another blast at them and see where I stand today.
opalchip
355 posts
 
Audiophiles and especially those who market to them love to sweep one of the most important foundations of modern science under the rug: Occam's Razor. "Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem" - loosely paraphrased as, "the simplest explanation is by far the most likely explanation."

The 2.5's are different, possibly because of issues that CINEMATIC SYSTEMS points out, and you may not like them. If you keep listening, there will be "break-in". But what will break in is not the woofers, or your ears, but your brain. After a while it will adjust somewhat to neutralize the 2.5's attributes to what it "expects" and you will find them less of a problem.

I've had many speakers, and I can tell you that a change of speakers always requires a mental adjustment period because our brains interpret a sudden change to be "wrong". So you have to force you brain to "accept" the new speakers first. The right thing to do is use the 2.5's for a few weeks and THEN do scientific A/B testing. At that point you might listen to the Studios and think Yuck! or you might realize the 2.5's are just not to your taste. But the idea of jumping into a random tweaking binge right away is bad advice.

By far the best way to evaluate speaker preference is side-by-side, (blind preferably) A/B testing - which you need a friend or a wife to help you with, in addition to a speaker switch of some sort. In addition you have to be very careful about even slight differences in relative volume levels between the A and B speakers (due to different efficiencies) influencing your judgment. But it's the ONLY way to avoid the placebo effect of assuming the more expensive, highly recommended component is better.

I can tell you one thing - what you've "read" about the 2.5's means close to Zero for you, personally. The reviewers out there (pro's and Audiogoners) are good writers and excellent at subtle self-promotion, but they don't hear anything that you don't. They are masters of manipulating you and each other with The Emperor's New Speakers.

ben_campbell OP
1,169 posts
 
Opalchip-cracking post and how does this fit in for an update.

I hadn't listened to anything since yesterday but left the speakers running for about 4 hours last night.

Does break in take place?-I dunno I keep an open mind but I do know straight out their boxes they took more power from my amp to drive-this changed over the first day's listening which was Friday.

Today however things have really started to fall into place-that missing resolution, warmth,Factor X call it what you will- has certainly appeared.
It's as if the seperation in the music now seems better held together.

What sounded grainy before now sounds clearer.
What sounded good before now sounds very good indeed.
The overpowering thump with mid-bass in particular sounds more controlled,as does the bass in general.

The detail is excellent and perhaps the limitations of certain recordings still cause a bit of disappointment however this is in the context of even being impressed by other cuts on the same album (Check out Custard Pie by Led Zep on Physical Graffiti and see if the following track The Rover justs sounds better recorded).

Most importantly today is the first listening session where I've got caught up in the music-it'll be interesting to see how this unfolds.
ben_campbell OP
1,169 posts
 
Yesterday was interesting because I threw some more different music into the mix with no further running in of the speakers.

The day befores listening was nearly all material I'd previously heard on the 2.5's.

Yesterday I heard some of the same traits that bothered me before-it does seem to depend on the type of recordings-well recorded stuff with space in the mix sounds superb but sometimes more complex rougher recordings does throw in some grain,the thump effect seemed to bother me more also.

At this stage I would probably agree I'm just adjusting to the 2.5's presentation.
Running in the speakers by force is just not feasable for me at this stage but I have to say I feel a lot closer to these speakers than I did at first.
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