Sonics of Soundlabs


Hello all,

I am contemplating the purchase of a pair of Soundlab M3's, and wonder if some of you guy's (and gals) could help me out a little. They have the newer upgraded transfomers etc. but were manufactured in the late 90's. I am currently using an ARC VT-200 into Martin Logan Prodigy's and love the sound but have always heard great things about the big Soundlabs stats.

For curiousity sake I auditioned a pair of Maggie 3.6's a few weeks ago and they didn't do it for me; there was no bottom end and the dynamics just were not there.......... I thought they did some things well but much preferred the Prodigy's in the end.

I would be buying these speakers used and will not be able to audition fully before purchase. Can anyone tell me how thier sonics compare to my two other "panel" references (the Maggie's and ML's)? Are there any issues (aside from the size) that I should consider when buying a pair of these speakers used? How do the M-3's stack up to the A1's and M1's? Do they match well with the rest of my system..... If I had to find a more powerful amp for instance it would probably be a deal breaker.

Thanks all in advance.

Chris
cmo
My research indicates that the speed of sound is about 1116 feet per second, but perhaps that assumes a different temperature or humidity or other variable than the 1127 feet per second cited by Nsgarch; but let's say either is in the ball park.

I'm not sure it it's necessary to push for a system that can reach all the way down to 20 Hz; personally, I'd be happy to get a clean 32 Hz. At 1116 feet per second, a 32 Hz wave will be just under 35 feet long. I've been under the impression that you'd like to have 35' between the speakers and the back wall (behind the listener) to avoid a wall reflection before the wave completes one cycle. Nsgarch suggest that maybe you only need to have enough room for the wave to complete half it's form, ie, 17.5 feet will get you 180 degrees of a sine wave for 32 Hz (assuming a 1116 feet per second speed of sound). I don't know if Nsgarch is right, but I'm rooting for him to be correct as that makes the challenge of finding a decent room only half as difficult as I had presumed. Further, if I understood Nsgarch, he says that that dimension will suffice even if it's from a wall/floor line to the diagonally opposite wall/ceiling line. My geometry isn't working, but someone should be able to compute how long the room needs to be for a given ceiling height to support such a 17.5' diagonal. That would in turn tell us the minimum length needed to support 32 Hz. Then from that length, we could use the Cardas formula to see what width would compliment the length (and height). Then we'd have a pretty good room identified, but to make it optimum we'd need to pie out the walls and the ceiling so those wouldn't be parallel surfaces. Then we'd just have some room treatments left to go to get the absorbtions and relflections dialed-in.

Again, I don't know if Nsgarch is right about the need for only half the length of the lowest desired frequency, but either way, I am highly confident that there is a minimum room length needed to get solid/accurate bass. And if the bass isn't right, it's going to be a struggle to get the midrange and highs right.

My main point is that you can buy all the world-class gear you want, but without a decent room, you aren't going to realize the potential of the gear. And the more capable the gear is the more the room is going to become the limiting factor. I'm pretty sure that spending 100k on a system wouldn't make as much sense as spending 50k on a system and 50k on a room (unless you already had a deluxe room). I've found that somewhere around $2500 to $10k for a system, the room can easily become the limiting factor. In fact, all the critiquing we share with each other on Agon about how speakers, amps, preamps, etc. have this or that tonal characteristic is often just a report on what our equipment plus our room sounded like. If people think ICs can act like mini "tone controls" (and no doubt they do), I think we would be surprised to hear how our rooms are mega tone controls if we could swap rooms as easily as we swap ICs.

I'm not against pursuing great equipment and great systems, I'm just advocating a recognition that the room is a huge variable that introduces a huge number subtle variables that add up to an almost random and often unpredictable result. Being aware of the causes and effects of room acoustics could save you a lot of time, money, and effort.
Martin Logan hasn't made a worthwhile speakers since they stopped making the Monolith III. As an old ML owner, there is nothing desirable or competitive about the new line.

If you must go hybrid/ESL then investigate the Innersound Eros III in its active version a very worthy rival to the Sound Labs with a much more Dynamic (punchy) Presentation like your Prodigy's vs. Maggies. The Innersounds compete with Dynamic speakers in their output and maintain the ESL sound and coherency. They are IMO are on a much higher performance level from your Prodigy's despite costing less.

I bring them up based on your input (what you've written) in the discussion, this seems like a it might be a good speaker for you. Too many ifs (from what others have said) in your system to go buy used Sound Labs it seems.
I will agree that the Innersound Eros III's are outstanding speakers. The integration of the woofer and panels is remarkable. And, their transparency and speed are as good as any speaker that I have ever heard. However, I just could not live with it's beaming characteristic and associated small sweet spot. It's too bad the designer didn't go ahead and curve the panels similar to the SL approach. Maybe in their next iteration....
Let me backup that Neal Has pointed out the one drawback, I should have mentioned. Its a focused setup, not a great deal of lateral movement allowed by the system and its a bit picky to get perfect.

Thanks Neal. I forgot.