2. amps-preamps
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Need Preamp Advice For Adding a Turntable

This is my first post on Audiogon, so please be gentle. Over the last several years I've been able to find the help that I've needed just searching through the forums, but now I could use advice specific to my system. I understand this is all subjective and everyone's hearing is different, I'm just hoping for a little shove in the right direction.

My system consists of:
Ayre K5xe mp Preamp
PS Audio PerfectWave DAC
PS Audio PerfectWave Transport
Theta Dreadnaught Amp
Vandersteen 5A Speakers

I'm pretty happy with the current sound, though, at times I've wondered if I could improve on it with a different preamp or possibly other tweaks. The Ayre is a great piece and I only mention changing it because it's been my experience that the preamp has the greatest affect on the sound. It's very easy to listen to, but I feel like something is missing. This may be due to previously having a tube preamp with class A mono blocks before having to move and go without a stereo for a couple of years. I've just recently finished piecing this system together so my ears haven't had a ton of time to adjust and I'm just happy to be able to play music again.

So now I'm hoping I can draw on other's experiences as to whether I should look into just adding a phono preamp to my current system, or go with a preamp with a built in phono stage or possibly replacing the Ayre K5xe mp with a separate line stage plus phono preamp that mate well together.

The type of sound that I enjoy is fairly neutral and transparent with a good amount of detail, a large soundstage with good separation and timbre with maybe a touch of bloom. Something musical and fairly accurate.

Features I'm looking for:
Solid State (have to integrate into HT, tubes a possibility)
Home Theater Pass Through
Fully Balanced
XLR and RCA inputs
Remote
Under $5K used

Preamp models I've read about, but have no experience:
Pass Labs XP-10 or XP-20
Parasound JC-2
Sim Moon
Aesthetix Calypso or Janus

Phono Preamps, also no experience with them:
Pass XP-15
Ayre P5xe
Aesthetix Rhea

I do enjoy what a nice tube preamp can add to a system, but am hoping to get as close as I can with a solid state preamp since it's going to be integrated with my HT and I don't want to burn up tubes watching movies and television. The phono preamp could be either tube or solid state. And my focus is on music and not HT even though I'm merging the two.

I appreciate any and all feedback on these models along with any other suggestions or advice that anyone may have to offer. And thank you for taking the time to read my post.
firsttoact
babybear's avatar
babybear
106 posts
 
A few years back I had a somewhat similiar system to yours - Vandy 5A speakers paired with the Theta Citadel amps (similiar sonics as the Dreadnaught) and I used an ARC Ref 3 preamp. While a little older now, the Ref 3 has all of the features that you listed and you should be able to find one used at $5K or less. I think that the Ref 3 paired with the Dreadnaught will provide the sonic attributes that you are looking for and in my opinion, would be a definite step up in sound from the Ayre K5xe MP preamp.

With the Ref 3, you would need a separate phono stage but you haven't given any budget for that or what analog front end you plan to use.

Hope that helps and good luck,

Arnie
firsttoact OP
8 posts
 
Zd542,
I'm using all five channels. Two for the Vandy 5As, two for the VSM-1s, and one for the VCC-2. I've considered adding another to bi-amp the 5As, but that would defeat its purpose to save space.

The Dreadnaught has actually surprised me and I'm rather happy with it. I had thought that I'd be taking a step back going from monoblocks and a three channel amp to the Dreadnaught, but I'm pretty content. My priority is music and this amp does that well. I haven't had a chance to try it with home theater yet and wonder how it will do.
zd542
5,339 posts
 
The reason I ask is it looks like you are looking for an upgrade to get a little more out of your system, and the improvement doesn't necessarily, have to come in the form of a new preamp. Have you tried using 4 channels on your Model 5's? If you haven't, you may be in for a pretty big surprise. The Dreadnaught is a very underrated amp. It was designed by Charles Hanson from Ayre.

As far as a preamp goes, the one you have now is great. Not only is it a great preamp by itself, but its very well matched to the rest of the system. The K5 is a very hard component to out class, but given the quality of everything else in your system, you can justify an upgrade. For SS goes, you may be able to pick up a used K1. Even if its an older unit, you can always have it upgraded. That will pair very well with an Ayre P5 phono preamp.

For tubes, Aesthetix would definately be a top pick. Given the rest of your system, you can't go wrong. The only thing to consider is if you should go with a Calypso and a Rhea or a Janus. You'll be happy either way. Babybear mentioned the ARC Ref 3. I think that would definitely be a good choice too. Its a bit more lively than the Aesthetix. Its a faster sounding preamp with great pacing.
firsttoact OP
8 posts
 
Hi Arnie,
Thank you for your response and suggestion. That must have been a very nice sounding system. I've heard great things about the Citadels along with ARC products.

Audio research has crossed my mind a few times, but there's so many preamp models I don't know where to start. Recently, I came very close to buying the DAC 8, but ended up going with the PS Audio Perfect Wave setup instead. I've just never been happy with the way USB fed into a DAC sounds, so I thought the PS Audio bridge using an ethernet connection might be the way to go.

Well, I only have $5K total to spend now and am trying to figure out where to go from here. I've considered just adding a phono preamp to the K5xemp and then trying to fine tune the system with cables, room treatments, etc. Or upgrading my preamp to another linestage then add a phono preamp down the road, or try to find a good preamp with phono stage. Is it generally better to have an all in one preamp or separate phono pre that can be changed while keeping the same line stage preamp? I have no experience with vinyl so I'm a little lost if you can't tell.

I guess I feel like the preamp is the heart of the system, so I want to be sure I have a good foundation to build from. The Ayre is a solid piece, but I feel like something is missing. Maybe I'm romanticizing my old system and need to spend more time listening to my current one.

Any and all advice is welcome, even if it's that I'm going about this all wrong.
firsttoact OP
8 posts
 
ZD542,
Thanks for your advice, it's just what I'm looking for.

You nailed it on the head when you said I'm looking for an upgrade, I'm just not sure where the best place to invest my money is. And I think I might have complicated it by rolling it in with adding a turntable and integrating 2 channel and HT together, both things I haven't tried before. My new house is smaller and will only accommodate the stereo and HT in one room and I'm a little worried whether it's going to work out. If not the HT will get the axe.

You might be right on about bi-amping the 5As to improve the sound. My previous amps were about twice the power (400w 8ohm) driving 3A sigs and maybe that's where the difference in sound is coming from. Mr. Vandersteen has told me over the phone that his speakers don't need a lot of power and that my previous amps were overkill, but I've noticed that Vandys can really soak up power and don't play as loud as other speakers I've heard. I don't crank up my system often, but every once in a while it's nice.

So now as far as upgrading goes, I'm wondering if maybe I should go ahead and hold onto the Ayre K5xemp and just add a phono stage? Oh and maybe keep my eyes open for a second Dreadnaught if the bi-amping works out. It's funny that you mentioned the Ayre K1 because I'm still kicking myself for passing one up locally that had the phono boards and remote. The seller really bent over backwards to help me buy it, but I was short on money at the time, wasn't sure if I'd buy a turntable, and wanted the convenience of HT pass through.

For full disclosure, the main reason that I'm looking over my system and questioning whether it's up to snuff is because I just recently purchased the 5As. Someone offered them to me for a price that I absolutely could not refuse. All of the electronics were purchased prior to this in anticipation of hooking up my 3A sigs that have been in storage for the past 2 or so years.

With a $5K budget for either used or new equipment, where do you think I'd get the most bang for my buck? If I replace the Ayre with another preamp, then that'd add around another $2K to go into the budget after selling it. I don't want to spend money where it's not needed, but want to give the 5As the opportunity to sound their best.
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