Joule Electra LA -150 ii/ 200 and impedance issues


I am interested in buying either an Electra LA-150 ii or LA-200 (used) but in the only review on the LA-200, in PF,
it is stated that the amp's input impedance should be over 100Kohms. I am bi-amping Thor TPA ii with input impedance of 100Kohms and Class d audio, input impedance of 47K, but wiuth adjustable gain. Speakers Joseph Audio Pulsars.
Any comments from Joule users, please?
Will the LAQ-200 be a fit? (It is a lot less expensive than the 150 ii) Joule doesnt publish the output impedance of his amps.
springbok10
Denis, I took a look at the PF review you referred to. The comment in the review about 100K, which I quote just below, makes no sense to me. Frankly, I don't think the author has any understanding of how gain and impedances inter-relate.
Matching it [the LA-200 line preamplifier] to an amplifier with impedance input more than 100,000 ohms is critical to obtain significant gain in the system. The circuit is set for 8 dB gain, but can be adjusted up to 12 dB. I left mine at the stock setting. Bear in mind that low impedance amps won’t be driven to their full output. This may or may not be important to you. But, it is a consequential characteristic of the LA-200 that limits its universality.
First, under any circumstances that are remotely within reason what may be affected to a significant degree by having too low a load impedance will be frequency response, and possibly phase response, not gain. Secondly, a blanket statement that "low impedance amps won't be driven to their full output" makes absolutely no sense, because different amps differ widely with respect to how much input voltage they require to be driven to full power.

The combined impedance of your 100K and 47K loads, when paralleled, is (47 x 100)/(47 + 100) = 32K.

Even if the output impedance of the LA-200 were as high as 32K, which would be utterly absurd, there would only be a 6 db reduction in overall gain as a result of the impedance incompatibility. For more reasonable output impedances, and the 32K load impedance, the gain reduction would be negligible. And although I haven't researched the gain and sensitivity of your particular power amps, 8 and 12 db line stage gains are in the right ballpark for most (although not all) applications these days, especially if digital sources are being used.

That said, the 150 MkII has an output impedance that is specified as being selectable to either 400 or 1200 ohms. Conceivably it is a good deal higher than those numbers at some frequencies, especially in the deep bass if its output is capacitively coupled. And as you indicated there doesn't seem to be an output impedance spec for the 200. If the two sets of output jacks that are provided on the 150 (and perhaps also on the 200) are driven from the same output stage, and if the worst case (highest) output impedance of that stage at any frequency is more than a small fraction of 32K, frequency response flatness (not gain) may be adversely affected.

I would suggest that you ask Joule what minimum load impedance is recommended for the two preamps, and if two pairs of individually buffered output jacks are provided. More often than not, when two pairs of output jacks are provided on a preamplifier they are driven from the same output stage, and are simply jumpered together inside the rear panel. In which case the single output stage (for each channel) would see the combined 32K load presented by your two amplifiers, rather than either of their individual input impedances.

Regards,
-- Al
Al, As always, your insights are extremely valuable and in the past have prevented me from bad decisions, like biamping on single terminals:)....but are you saying that, if a preamps outputs are paralleled, which yoy say is common, bi-amping may cause issues without our knowing it because the combined impedance load is too low for the preamp? Isnt it conventional wisdom that the ratio should be 10:1 of impedance output:input? Maybe this isnt often achieved and maybe bi-amping may adversely affect frequency response and, on the whole, be deleterious instead of additive? Do I misundertand you? This is surely a fundamental question?
Thanks, Denis. You understand correctly.

If a single preamp output stage (for each channel) is driving two power amplifiers, either because the preamp has two pairs of output jacks that are jumpered together internally and driven from a single output stage, or if y-adapters are used to split a single pair of output jacks, the load impedance seen by that output stage will be considerably lower than either of the individual power amplifier input impedances.

As you indicated, if a preamp is driving a single power amp the ratio of power amp input impedance to preamp output impedance should ideally be 10:1 or more (at the frequency for which preamp output impedance is highest, and its value at some frequencies may be much higher than the specified nominal output impedance, especially in the case of a tube preamp). A lower ratio may or may not give good results, depending mainly on how the preamp's output impedance varies with frequency (the less variation the better).

If a single preamp output stage is driving two power amps the same principle applies, except that the load impedance that should be used to calculate the ratio is the parallel combination of the two amplifier input impedances. Which as I indicated will be lower than either individual input impedance, usually much lower.

As illustrated by the calculation in my previous post for your specific amplifiers, the combined parallel input impedance of two amplifiers equals the product (multiplication) of their individual input impedances divided by the sum of their individual input impedances.

Regards,
-- Al