Who makes

Hi Al, the significance isn't. IOW, yes, to your first question. As to the second, no, simply because, well, the term is IMO mis-used.

To be clear here what I am saying is that the actual impedance of the circuit is not changed. IOW what is reasonable is that the amplifier using feedback and operating within its capabilities probably means that it is able to act as a voltage source. Now if the load is entirely resistive its probably not of much consequence. At any rate we are still talking about servo gain in the amplifier if it has feedback- and that servo gain does not actually affect its output impedance.

It is a lot easier to understand this when you look at the example of an amplifier trying to drive a lower output impedance, especially one that might be too low for the amplifier to do efficiently. Then its easy to see that feedback has no effect on output impedance.

Because of this I have really been of the opinion that a different term needs to be used, so that understanding of what is happening comes a little easier. Remember Bombaywalla asking me about intelligent amps? Because the feedback affects voltage response, it works out that it will cause the amp to make less power into higher impedances, which can work nicely if that higher impedance is a peak brought on by resonance.

The problem of course is that feedback also contributes to unnatural brightness in amplifiers, by adding trace amounts of odd-ordered harmonic distortion up to the 81st harmonic (see Crowhurst). Because our ears use these harmonics as loudness cues, we are very sensitive to them- so much so that amounts that are nearly impossible to measure with current equipment are not hard to hear.

So if we can be clear about what is happening, we will have an easier time charting our way to making the equipment do what music and our ears expect.

If we are confused about what the effects of various design considerations are on the behavior of the amp are, its guaranteed to be a muddle, and that is what the majority of the audio industry has been in for the last 40 years or so (by this I mean that the ideal in amplifiers under the Voltage Paradigm really has not changed all that much in that time- just look at how well an old Citation 12 can do against modern solid state).

I have no doubt that this is part of why tube amplifiers are still very much with us 50-60 years after being declared obsolete. Heck, tubes have been obsolete for longer than when they were the only game in town. Obviously, the use of that term is also mis-applied :)

12-06-13: Almarg
Ralph, thanks for the thorough explanations. I too was having some difficulty understanding some of this, but after reading your two posts on the subject a couple of times I think I follow what you are saying.

Thank you, Al, for this post. Good to know that I was not the only one having trouble interpreting what Ralph wrote. I know that if YOU are having trouble interpreting Ralph then I'm well within the right to be confused as well. ;-)

Ralph, thanks for your 2nd post - you have made things much clearer than what you wrote in your orig post on this matter. I think that I now follow what you are saying.

I like Al's question to you tho' as I was thinking along those lines as well. Please clarify further. Thank you.

Bombaywalla, your analysis of the 1040 joule number looks reasonable to me. Obviously the 10 amp number is just a rough guess, but even if it is off significantly the bottom line conclusion would undoubtedly still stand.

On the output impedance issue, I suspect that you didn't see Ralph's last post before submitting your last post, the two posts having appeared at around the same time. Given that clarification I think we are all on the same page technically, and what Ralph is essentially saying is that equating voltage source characteristics resulting from feedback with reduced output impedance, besides not being technically precise, reinforces lack of recognition of the tradeoffs that are involved. Given that interpretation, I see no issues.

Best regards,
-- Al

This stuff is just soooo cool.

Tech guys, from a strictly intuitive and anecdotal perspective, I gather that the theory and formulas can take one just so far. That there's a "black box" aspect of synergy or a witch's brew of "X" factors going on in an amp that come together (or not) when driving a particular speaker.

To this point, I seem to recall that a while back Al may have posted something in another OP to the effect that the theory may help one identify a amp/speaker combo that MAY (??) work well and conversely MAY (??) not work well. But, and this is a big BUTT (sic), one will not know for sure until he/she tries out the particular amp/speaker combo of interest.

I recently posted an observation in the post running relating to amps and ESL speakers that speaks to the point made above. Based strictly on amp/speaker impedance matching theory, I surmise that my speakers should sound their best when driven off my amp's 4 ohms taps because voltage regulation is tighter, damping factor higher and output impedance lower.

But for some reason(s) that I can't explain, I keep coming back to the amp's 8 ohm taps. Maybe it's because the speaker's midrange band may be a little hotter (+ .8 db) and it works better in my furnished basement. Maybe it's because the 8 ohm taps punch out 2.5 db more gain that the 4 ohm taps. Maybe it's because there's a genie who lives in the output trannies. :) I just don't know. It just is -- to me.

So Ralph, what about hiring me if I go back to school to try my hand at becoming a EE??? ;-)

Best.

Bruce

Thanks Al, Bombaywalla and Ralph. Obviously not being a EE tech, the only thing the joule power supply stat empirically and intuitively meant to me was that it helped the amp "muscle" its way through some tough speaker loads. But I didn't understand the current aspect.

My speakers present a 4 ohm impedance load and some highly capacitive phase angles in the bass region. Based on Bombaywalla's explanation, I gather that my amp not only performs "somewhat SS-like" because it has a somewhat "low'ish" output impedance, but the 10 amp and 2.92 second estimated stats (or perhaps less??) enables the amp to actually do what a real SS can do -- deliver some serious current into a speaker that presents a low impedance load and capacitive phase angles at low frequencies. Well ... at least to some degree. Cool!

Btw, ARC's new Ref 250 and Ref 750 mono amps have advertised power supplies of 900 and 1300 joules, respectively. And that's per channel.

Now I understand why it has been reported that a number of folks who own those amps are quoted as having cried out, "it's alive ... it's alive....," when cranking some serious volume. LOL :) Just kidding!

Best,

Bruce