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Focus 160 w/2 JL f113s vs. Focus 380 or C2 II

I've had my Dyanudio Focus 160's & 2 JL f113's for about three weeks now. No matter what I try, short of spending thousands of more dollars, I cannot get the subs to integrate, let alone not sound boomy. It's evidenced by the fact that the Dyn's are at their best sound when the subs are completely turned off. The problem is further compounded by the fact that i have an integrated amp from Simaudio (340i) that makes it exceedingly difficult to introduce any sort of room correction & or external crossover. So in order to try to get the subs to work I would I have to at minimum spend an extra ~$8000 (separate pre-amp & power amp of equal or higher quality & the mcintosh men220 [adjusted for trade-in value of 340i]).

I could try to go this route, and maybe they integrate, maybe they don't. Or, I could cut my losses now, & trade-in for the 380 or C2 sans the subs. My only major issue is that I primarily listen to various flavors of Electronic music, and a little Jazz. Electronic music uses the very low end of the audible frequency spectrum so often that it's absolutely necessary for any system to accurately go down to the bottom, other wise certain tracks will sound a bit anemic.

So, what would you fine fellows recommend? Go with a full range without subs, or stick with what i've got and try to integrate (am i giving up too soon)?

For what it's worth I will be auditioning the C2's and 380's later this week. And from a financial standpoint I would essentially be even if I took the 380's and would need to toss in an extra $3500 for the C2's [not accounting for the need for a more powerful pre-amp/amp set up].

Any input would be greatly appreciated!
coloneltushfinger
johnnyb53
3,510 posts
 
What are your room size and dimensions?

Where are the subs located relative to the Focus 160s?

What's the crossover frequency?

Have you run the JL EQ program?

Are you running the 160s full range or with a high-pass filter?

When you say you've "tried everything," what have you tried?

Although all JLs have fast rise times, for a stand-mounted speaker with an 85dB sensitivity I would have been more inclined to go with the F110.

As much as I like JLs, the B&W PV1D might have been a better match.
doggiehowser
672 posts
 
I've always maintained that subs are just incredibly fiddly to integrate with the mains. There's never a Goldilocks level: too hot or too cold, depending on the track I am listening to.

That is until I used Thiel's S1 Integrator and their Smartsub SS2. They work really well to augment the low frequencies without mucking about with the main speakers. They have phased the S1 out now which is a real shame cos it works very very well and I have used it with other brands of speakers and they work just as seamlessly, floor stander or bookshelves.

For music, you might be better off with the C2 or 380 as long as you have enough space around the speakers from the nearest walls.

That said, I thought the ARO for JL was supposed to help alleviate this problem? I use the f113 but only for home theatre so the AVP does the bass management.
coloneltushfinger OP
31 posts
 
I've attached a floor plan with the placement of the Speakers/Subs. As you can probably tell I have very little artistic talent.

http://i.imgur.com/1MHfqpf.jpg

Up until earlier today I crossed it at 80hz, then started experimenting and now it's crossed at 35hz, 12db slope, -8dB on the elf trim. To be honest it sounded better at 80hz.

I have run the JL EQ program, a few times actually. The last time I ran it there was some decent improvement.

The 160's are being run full range. I have yet to find a way to cut them off. The Simaudio 340i has proved problematic in this regard.

Everything: I've tried dozens upon dozens of different settings on the JLs, I've moved around the setup as much as possible (movie the Dyns further from the wall have definitely helped with soundstage & the midrange not the subs though).
doggiehowser
672 posts
 
My personal preference is never to run another crossover in front of the main speakers and prefer to run them in full range.

The S1 works by telling the sub integrator where the main speakers fall off. What frequency does the speaker drop off in reproducing. Is the slope based on a ported or sealed speaker design, and also your power amp gain/speaker sensitivity. It then calculates what the sub needs to reproduce to fill in the gap. The Thiel is unique in that it doesn't need a mic to calibrate. The subs need to have 2 numbers dialed in. How far they are from the nearest wall. That's it. And the S1, you just key in the data from the speaker/amp manual.

I thought the ARO does the same thing but using a mic so it can be a bit harder to dial in? I think the Velodyne SMS-1 can do something similar.
xti16
1,525 posts
 
Up until earlier today I crossed it at 80hz, then started experimenting and now it's crossed at 35hz, 12db slope, -8dB on the elf trim. To be honest it sounded better at 80hz.
As a C1 owner with a Rel B3 I found the integration to be somewhat time consuming. First I want the sub to pick up where the C1's drop off - not add to it. For starters I would say you need to get the timing/phasing just right. You don't want the sub to lead or lag the mains. Since my Rel's phase switch is only 0 or 180 degrees I had to physically move the sub closer or farther to get it to blend in. I would also start with just 1 sub and get it right (because all Dyn's do sound great all by themselves but do need a little help in the lowest of octaves). Then work on the gain. Once it is integrated properly you shouldn't be able to hear where the sub is. But the hard part here is what is right. Most recordings don't go that low and if you increase the gain to compensate for what is not there you will have too much for the recordings that do go that low. At least that is what I found. Now add the second sub and repeat the process (starting with the timing/phasing) making sure sub #2 doesn't cancel out sub #1. Then go back and adjust the gain.

A second option would be to get an external crossover and cut the 160's off at 80hz and have the subs pick it up from there. Again the timing/phasing still has to be right to sound good.

That being said if you go the 380 or C2 MKII you will probably want to upgrade the Sim 340i.

Best of luck what ever you decide.
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