Sub-woofer fast enough for Horns?


I wonder if anyone has tried matching a sub-woofer which has the speed to match with Horn Speakers? I tried Rel-Storm but not good enough!
luna
It is the shape of the in-room bass frequency response curve, rather than the "speed" of the woofer, that is primarily responsible for how "fast" the bass sounds.

Lumpy bass = "slow" bass, as over-emphasis somewhere in the bass region gives the subjective impression that we tend to describe as "slow" or "fat" or "boomy".

And,

Smooth bass = "fast" bass, it's actually not any faster, but it sounds that way when the fundamentals and their overtones are in proper proportion.

Group delay is of far less subjective significance than we'd tend to think, because the ear's time-domain resolution is quite poor in the bass region. Controlled listening tests that used digital signal processing to isolate group delay from frequency response have shown that group delay on the order of what we'd get from a vented speaker system is barely audible on test tones and statistically inaudible on program material. The reason sealed subs generally sound faster is the shape of their frequency response curve (which is generally more room-gain-friendly), rather than their actual "speed".

Anyway, imo the key to smooth, and therefore "fast", in-room bass is how the subwoofer(s) and room interact. What the room does to the sub's output dominates. Yes we can hear the difference between one sub and another in a given room, but still the room's generally detrimental signature is imposed on whatever the sub is doing.

The solution I advocate is, multiple small subs distributed around the room. Each will inevitably have a different room-induced peak-and-dip pattern, and the sum of these multiple dissimilar peak-and-dip patterns is much smoother than any single sub's output would be. And to address the issue of room gain (more precisely boundary reinforcement) boosting the low end a bit, I prefer subs whose native frequency response starts out as approximately the inverse of typical room gain.

Let me go off on a psychoacoustic tangent here. The ear/brain system tends to average out peaks and dips that are fairly close together, but if they are too far apart, the ear/brain system can't average them and they stick out like sore thumbs (especially the peaks - dips are harder to hear). The room-induced peak-and-dip pattern of a typical home listening room with a single sub has the peaks and dips spread way too far apart for the ear/brain system to average them. But with a distributed multisub system, not only are the peak-to-dip ratios significantly reduced, but we also have more peaks and dips bunched up closer together, so that the ear/brain system's averaging-out characteristic can work to our advantage.

Imo this approach has advantages over a single equalized sub, in that the bass response is much more uniform throughout the room. And if you do want to equalize a multisub system, you get better results because you don't have as much response variation from one location to another.

For deepest-loudest-bang-for-buckest bass, go with a single mighty ubersub. For smoothest (and therefore subjectively fastest) bass, I think the acoustics and psychoacoustics both favor a good distributed multisub system.

Duke
dealer/manufacturer (yes, of multisub systems... grains of salt all around)
2 things come to mind. First the sub is not in phase with the mains. You don't want the sound from the sub either leading or lagging the mains. My Rel B3 has a phase switch of 0 or 180 degrees. I had to physically move the sub forward or back to get it to blend in properly. Second if using the high level input the stock Rel cable is as poor as you can get. On a whim I ordered a Nordost baseline cable made to Rel spec ($35 upcharge from Norsost) and the effect was very noticeable. I heard attack and decay that I didn't know was there. Also when I put in the Nordost cable I found the timimg/phasing still wasn't quite right. Once dialed in it is fantastic.

That being said I use the Rel to pick up where the mains drop off.My Dyn C1 speakers are rated to 45hz but I cross the sub over at 34hz and have the gain about 10 o'clock.
I have tested many many sub's in 15 years of time. In the past Rel was the most popular brand and most sold. These days they are not the best anymore. I Always owned very expensive Highend sets but without a subwoofer. Even sub's like the Rel Stadium and Stentor were too slow. The best and fastest sub's are Always sealed . And they have only one bass unit in front of the cabinet. In the past with Rel sub's you didn't go above 80 hz because they were too slow for this and they became very noisy. Avove 80 hz low freq. become touchable. With Audyssey Pro I use my Monitor Audio Platinum PLW-15 sub from 16 hz till 140 hz. This is possible because the response and control is superior to any Rel sub. Using it to 140 hz you get a new level in quality with a sub. Instruments and voices become more round, more natural sounding and they still have the same and small dimensions as in real. Rel sub's often make instruments and voives bigger than they should be. And I have the stealth integration I dreamed of for many years. Only in the last 5 years I found sub's fast enough for stereo use. I Always hated them for stereo use. Time has changed. Using Audyssey pro and using them till 140 hz sets everything to a new dimension!
Bob_reynolds wrote 'Can anyone explain what "fast" means? What does "slow" sound like?'

Well speed in the case of a sub-woofer is obviously not an apt description since they are concerned with frequencies that have no 'quickness' at all. In that case its the impression you get with a low distortion subwoffer that is not blurred by things like cabinet resonances and has other measures like servo feedback to ensure better tracking.

With regard to full range speakers its the ability to hear nuances you might not otherwise hear. In electrostatics for example due to the light diaphragm material they have it can accelerate and decelerate quickly. In my speakers, which are conventional, its due to them being lined with 1/4 inch copper that reduces resonances that mask detail. In horns its due to their acoustic impedance matching.

Basically is the impression you get of detail jumping out at you without blurring - you say its fast.

Thanks
Bill
Wenn it is slow it is not syngron with the music played by the speakers. And instruments and voives become bigger in proportion as they should be. Instruments and voices are very direct to point out in real. And very small in dimension. Timing is crusual in music. Most sub's on the market are too slow for stereo use.