Tube Friendly High End "Big" speakers

10-03-14: Dave_72
Those look good, Rhljazz, but do they have enough bass. It's hard to beat the 15s in the Tannoys and JBLs.

Really, read Olsher's review of the Crescendo. The transmission line proveds clean, linear bass down to around 40 Hz. An important distinction of the Crescendo is its transmission line bass loading. Olsher makes a very strong point about how these speakers dramtically showed how he got used to the lagging bass of bass reflex designs, whereas the TL-loaded designs are quicker, more articulate, and especially rhythmic, i.e., more real sounding.

Bass reflex designs tend to have wild swings in impedance, something most tube amps don't like, complicated by the bass reflex's need for an amp with high damping factor, something a tube amp can't generally deliver. The Crescendo presents a benign load and presents no out-of-phase time lag. Win-win.

If you want that last octave of extension, it's far more economical to get a clean, articulate speaker down to 40Hz and then add in the last octave with a powered sub or two. True full-range speakers that don't let the bass extension smear the upper octaves rquire Herculean damping and cabinetry, making them crazy expensive--Wilson Maxx & Alexandria, Focal's top line Utopias, the big Magicos. These are $80K-200K.

Brand new and full retail Crescendos are $18K. A pair of JL Fathom F12s adds $7K. For $25K you have a true full-range system with sub-20Hz extension. Even a pair of their E110s would do the job for about $3K/pair, coming in at $21K and still tube-friendly.

Ok, granted. However, you could biamp with a solid state amp on the woofers and a tube amp on the mids and tweeters. And not necessarily regarding full range, the big Tannoys, ATCs, and JBLs are full range at much less, so I dunno what you're getting at there.

Imo, subs are cheating, and it takes forever to get them dialed in properly, and then you still have problems integrating them. You can set up your rig any way you'd like of course, but just by hooking up a pair of subs and thinking that all is well is doing one a disservice.

10-04-14: Dave_72
Ok, granted. However, you could biamp with a solid state amp on the woofers and a tube amp on the mids and tweeters. And not necessarily regarding full range, the big Tannoys, ATCs, and JBLs are full range at much less, so I dunno what you're getting at there.

What I'm getting at is that if you settle for 40-20Khz flat response in your main speakers, and choose wisely, you can get the same kind of sound quality in a $10K-20K speaker that would cost $70K-200K if you go for that 20-40Hz bottom octave incorporated into an all-passive speaker. The $30K KEF Blade is a world-class speaker ... down to 40Hz, as is the Sonus Faber Olympica at even less, as is the Magneplanar 20.7 at about $14K, and several others including the updated version of the Acoustic Zen Crescendo.

Imo, subs are cheating, and it takes forever to get them dialed in properly, and then you still have problems integrating them.

Cheating? By whose standard or law? I call it a cost-effective solution to an otherwise expensive and difficult problem. Integrating the newest round of subs is not that hard. My subs have continuous controls for crossover, 0-360 deg. phase, and volume. Newer ones add crossover slopes and room correction. I'd rather spend 1-4 hours integrating my subs than try to move 100-300 lb. true full-range speakers around to attain a balance between imaging AND linear bass response. In many cases, the room modes simply won't let you.

But with separate subs, you position the mains exactly where you want for soundstage and imaging, and position the subs at the best locations for linear bass response. Then you use the crossover and phase controls to integrate them. With some subs (e.g., the Velodyne DD+ series) you can further integrate with automated room correction. Use the Stereophile Test CD and a dB meter from Radio Shack and it gets even easier.

You can set up your rig any way you'd like of course, but just by hooking up a pair of subs and thinking that all is well is doing one a disservice.

I never implied it was that easy; that's your construct. I've posted in other threads that I take up to 3-4 hours to fully integrate my subs with the mains, but it's time well spent. Furthermore, with all the integration features that come with the best subs today, integration isn't a black art anymore.

Just went through the same process and yes, high efficiency speakers solve a lot of problems, including amplifier choices. The differences in sound pressure level with the same power is remarkable and makes the amp selection less restrictive.

You have had, on this thread, some pretty knowledgable posters. I followed these helpful posters and ended up with Zu Definition 4s powered by vintage McIntosh MC 60 tube mono blocks. After selecting the right tubes I'm very satisfied. However I'd like to share something I've learned from a very knowledgeable audio expert, Jim Smith.
You can enter his name in the forum and get an idea of his take on things. His book, Get Better Sound, is a must read for someone in your position.

First of all the Zu Def 4 is by itself very dynamic. With the 60 watts Macs on the full range drivers and the 400 watt/12" down firing subs, to say they rock would be accurate. There is a thread on this site, "Do I really need a subwoofer" that I found informative.

Now back to Jim Smith. He explained that for overall room balance and control of room nodes, having independent subs, even with these speakers, carries a vast benefit. Along these lines, you might want to consider some high quality subs regardless of the speaker brand. This whole integration problem just isn't the problem some make it out to be. Zu makes great subs to augment their speakers. You can make the room much more musical with subs, it just takes good placement and fiddling with the crossover point to get it right.

Now if you really want to get it right, whatever you purchase, call Jim to set up a Room Play session. He's got the sub thing down. He's got everything down all the way to the phase in the electricity coming into your system. I know this sounds like an ad for Jim, rest assured it's just a recommendation to help get you to where you want to go.

Ok, I see what you're getting at regarding speakers, but again certain models of the makes I noted do go lower than 40Hz. And the price is mostly within what you stated.

Well, I used the word cheating as a figure of speech really. Anyway, I see your point regarding subs. However, you are definitely an expert at this, and someone with less technical knowledge is gonna be overwhelmed by properly setting up a sub or subs.

So for me, careful placement of the main speakers, and my speakers weigh 120 lbs each, is more rewarding. I dunno what the consensus is, but I'll venture a guess that most audiophiles would rather set it and forget it. That would give more time to listen to music.