Cables more hype than value?

I think the real problem here is that people on both sides of the argument are letting their emotions dictate where all of this is going. As the thread goes on, everyone just gets more aggravated and the insults keep piling up; on both sides.

"Here Irv, you are implying that if it cannot be measured, it cannot be heard. So don't say that you and Rok aren't making any implications or statements about science being your master. We say if it can be heard but not measured, science hasn't figured out what to measure yet.

I can take two speakers that measure the same, yet they will not sound the same, why is that? Science can't explain that..........yet."

I just want to clarify what I think we are talking about here. And that is, are we able to hear differences in the way differences cables sound? That's the question I want to answer. Issues such as whether one think cables are priced fairly or how much of a difference they make, is for another thread. That stuff is just personal opinion; everyones answer is valid.

Looking at the above quote from Jmcgrogan2, I have to disagree. Just because you can't measure the differences in the way cables sound, using traditional measurements, doesn't mean you can't use science to prove the differences exist. Measuring is just one scientific method. If all we are looking to do is confirm that 2 cables can sound different from each other, a well conducted listening test is just as valid.

I've worked in this industry for most of my adult life and had the opportunity to be involved in many listening tests over the years (Not all of the tests involved cables. We tested other components, as well.). The results are very clear. Even factoring in for error the evidence was such that there could be no possibility of a chance occurrence. The differences were real.

I fully understand that I won't even come close to changing anyones opinion on the matter. And that's fine. No one has any good reason to take my word for anything. I will suggest, though, since so many people take the time to post on threads like this, they really care about this issue. Why not just get together with a few people that share this common interest, and conduct some of your own tests? I can't tell you what the results will be, but I'm pretty sure no one will regret taking part in it.

....(and) "What a miracle it is that someone can reproduce something that is capable of touching our emotions" - Frogman.
My nomination for the Nobel Prize!!!!

Test this... Regina Carter - "Paganini: After A Dream"

03-10-13: Zd542
Measuring is just one scientific method. If all we are looking to do is confirm that 2 cables can sound different from each other, a well conducted listening test is just as valid.

I'd like to add to Zd's characteristically knowledgeable and level-headed post the self-evident point that analysis also has its place in the scientific method.

To cite a few examples, the first two of which are somewhat extreme but not completely unrealistic:

It is easily possible to demonstrate by analysis that the difference between 10 foot interconnect cables having capacitances of 50 pf/ft and 10 pf/ft is likely be audible to those with unimpaired hearing if used at the output of a resistor-based passive preamp having typically high output impedance.

It is easily possible to demonstrate by analysis that the difference between a 20 foot speaker cable having high inductance and one having low inductance is likely to be audible to those with unimpaired hearing if used with electrostatic speakers whose impedance descends to 1 ohm or so at 20 kHz (which is not uncommon).

It is easily possible to demonstrate by analysis that differences in phono cable capacitance will have a profound effect on the sonics of moving magnet cartridges.

So cable differences can be audible. The question then becomes how much less extreme can the circumstances become before reports of claimed differences are sufficiently implausible that they are more likely to be the result of the placebo effect or failure to recognize and control extraneous variables.

Obviously the answer will vary considerably from system to system and from listener to listener, and each listener will have to make his or her own judgment about that. My bottom-line feeling, however, is that as with most things in life the best answer is likely to fall somewhere in the middle ground between the ideological extremes.

Issues such as whether one think cables are priced fairly or how much of a difference they make, is for another thread. That stuff is just personal opinion; everyones answer is valid.

Not sure that those should necessarily be treated as separate issues. It often seems to be implicit in the arguments of those at the "believer" end of the spectrum that the existence of differences suggests that "more expensive" has a high likelihood of being "better." And the basic motivation of those at the "skeptic" end of the spectrum often seems to be to dispel that belief.

For the several reasons I expressed in my earlier posts in this thread, and perhaps for other more cynical reasons that could be cited, my belief is that the correlation between performance and price, while significantly greater than zero, should not be expected to be a strong one.

Best regards,
-- Al

Al, I of course agree, and called out cables needing to be application-appropriate earlier (only to have Nonoise twist my words around), but you know full well that's not what many of these folks are arguing for. They're arguing that two cables that measure alike can sound different. That even connectors can sound different.

To everyone else, regarding what we can and can't measure, I've got news for the non-technical among us, the level of design sophistication that goes in audio system cables, the frequency range and the voltages involved, are just so much child's play in modern electrical engineering. If you've got a new Intel-based PC you have 8 giga-transfer per conductor signals in it, using some incredibly complex signaling techniques. Just coming us with the design rules for circuitry like that takes years of research. Audio cables are first or second year BSEE stuff.

The only thing underlying the controversy with cables, IMO, is that one can interchange them. I don't hear anyone pondering audible differences in circuit board materials, single versus double-sided circuit boards, or the gauge or type of internal wiring, and I think that's only because you can't interchange them. Otherwise I think I would see posts about low-loss versus FR-4 circuit boards.